starter seems dead?

[p7387]

1987 r10 2wd 305 short fleet

the starter seems dead, i made about 10 attempts to crank it and heard absolutely nothing, although 1 time out of the 10 i heard a subtle sound? then nothing.
the battery is fully charged and all other electronics work fine, and i checked the ecm and crank fuses.

do you think its a bad starter? what steps should i try for trouble shooting?
if the starter does need replacing is this an easy task and something that can be done without a lift?

thanks for the help

[FlatBlack77]

could be the ignition switch.

is all the starter wiring there and hooked up?

[CanadianC10]

check your grounds. best luck

[p7387]

all wiring looks ok

before i pull the starter are there basic things to trouble shoot and eliminate?
relay for exmple

[rich weyand]

If the battery cables are more than 10 years old, replace them.  They corrode internally with no outside sign of problems.

To check, put a voltmeter from end to end of the cable.  Have someone turn key to start and measure voltage across the cable.  If you get more than a volt or so, the cable is bad.

Also, remove, clean, and retighten the connections of the battery cables at both ends.

[bd]

all wiring looks ok

before i pull the starter are there basic things to trouble shoot and eliminate?
relay for example

"Looking" at a wire or battery cable doesn't tell you the condition of the conductor hidden deep inside the insulation.  Battery cables commonly wick battery acid along their strands and gradually corrode to green dust deep within the cables, completely hidden from view.  That's why Rich recommends periodically replacing both cables and concomitantly servicing the connections.  I'll expand on his post by recommending 2-gauge to 1/0 all copper cable as service replacements for the best performance and longest service life.

As long as the vehicle isn't lowered, you should be able to perform the following without raising the vehicle on a lift.  If you determine the need to raise the vehicle for access, be sure to use jack stands to safely support the vehicle.

Verification of the starter "crank" circuit before removing the starter from the vehicle*:

• Firmly set the e-brake, block the wheels and place the transmission in "Park" (automatic) or "Neutral" (standard).
  
  
• Connect a test light to a clean, bare grounding point on the frame.  Do not ground the test light to the engine, the starter or a starter mounting bolt!
  
  
• Probe the 3/8" battery cable stud on the starter solenoid to verify the test light lights and that the test light ground connection is good.
  
  
• Touch and hold the test light probe to the "S" terminal of the starter solenoid.
  
  
• Have an assistant try to crank the engine while you observe the test light.

• If the test light brightly illuminates in the crank position, but the starter doesn't crank - tap the starter with a hammer and retest.  If it cranks, replace the starter.  If it still doesn't crank, reprobe the 3/8" cable stud at the solenoid while attempting to crank.  If the test light brightly illuminates on both the 3/8" stud and the "S" terminal of the solenoid while attempting to crank, probe the starter case and retest.  If the test light illuminates, disassemble and clean all of the engine and starter ground connections.  If the test light doesn't illuminate, replace the starter.
  
  
• If the test light does not illuminate, or illuminates dimly, while attempting to crank, check for loss of crank signal on the purple wire leading to the solenoid.  This could be caused by an open circuit ("no illumination" resulting from a broken wire, bad connection, or faulty switch), or a partial connection ("dim illumination" resulting from corroded/dirty/burned connections, burned switch contacts, etc).

*  The problem with removing the starter for bench testing before diagnosing its control circuitry, is that jostling the starter may temporarily mask the issue and allow the starter to "test" good on the bench as components such as the armature shift internally.

[p7387]

thanks for the help

tested constant power to the starter it was OK
tested power to the S wire and it was OK
i pulled the starter and did not notice any shims, should there have been some or do some starters do without them?

tomorrow i will go and buy the starter but i had a few questions....

is it worth it to replace just the solenoid alone or is it typically better to replace the entire unit

is any replacement good enough or is there a particularly desirable option?

i noticed a metal bracket attached to the starter, if the new unit comes without should i put the bracket on?

any other tips on the install or hidden pitfalls?

thank you

[bd]

Replace the starter as an assembly.  The solenoid isn't the only part of the starter that wears.

Shim the starter ONLY if it whines.  Roll the flexplate/flywheel all the way around and inspect the ring gear for chipped teeth - replace as necessary or you will damage the new starter.

The bracket you refer to is either a support that attaches to the "free end" of the starter or a solenoid heat shield.  If you use the same style starter, reinstall the bracket.

Opt for one of the newer, compact, high-torque starters, such as...

I've had my DB Electrical SDR0031-L gear reduction starter on my truck for over 2-1/2 years and it still works perfectly.  It's actually cheaper than most parts store starters.  Turns the engine over so much faster.  I was so happy with it that I bought a similar starter from them for my Tahoe recently when its starter went out.  That saved me something like $70.  Very happy customer.

...or...

AutoZone 9990S

...or...

O'Reilly's 03-0485X

...or Ebay... etc.

[p7387]

replaced the starter today, so far all seems fine.
however i did notice a slight gap around the starters housing and the aluminum enclosure for the ring gear, this is something i hadn't paid attention to prior to removing so i dont know how it looked before. i ran a slight bead of silicon around the gap to prevent water and dirt from getting into it, the fact that the gap exists seems like a less than perfect design.

as mentioned there were no shims on the original so i did not use any with the new one, the starter appears to sound normal while cranking. i am not quite sure when or how the "whine" indicating the need for shims presents itself? do you hear the whine while cranking? or just after start/letting go of the key? if it is the later i do hear a very subtle whine sound after start/letting go of the key as the starter shuts down, is this normal?

thank you for the help

[bd]

If you are referring to the narrow gap between the starter nose and the dust cover, it's not important.  If it looks excessive to you post a pic.

Here is more info on using shims to reduce starter noise.