Author Topic: Multi port EFI 496  (Read 1729 times)

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2020, 10:10:11 PM »
FINALLY!!! Heads have arrived!




Things of beauty.

Unfortunately, the GenVI Melling cam is proving too much. Itíll go back in the box and back to Summit. In its place Iíve got a COMP cams EFI friendly cam and lifters coming.
The GenVI replacement cam seemed a good idea at first, but it limited my options in timing set and in addition to needing the later style cam button and thrust plate I also would need to retrofit the GenVI method of aligning the lifters. While my block was machined for the thrust plate, I donít see any way to mount whatever aligns the lifters:

Something grabs those flats on the lifters. I assume it bolts to something else.
Where thereís a will and all... I have a lot of will, but the easiest WAY is to return some stuff and buy other stuff that better suits my needs.

Iíve built a handful of engines in my life. Even a couple of real hot-rods... but the hot rod engines were motorcycle engines and the other stuff was all factory replacement stuff. Nothing with the aftermarket support small and big block Chevyís have. I appreciate that Chevyís are EASY as well. One bellhousing pattern and minimal architectural changes beyond. But just enough in this case. The ďeasyĒ, factory roller cam swap was proving anything BUT EASY.

I got heads today and decided on another cam.

I hope to get the heads installed in the next couple days. I can loosely install the rocker studs, but Iím dead in the water until I get a cam. Comp says itís in the mail...

I put the studs in!!!:


Everyone wants to sell me an application specific ďthread sealantĒ but I have lots of this on hand and itís never let me down:

Speak now or forever hold your piece. I donít see why it wonít work. PTFE thread sealant, 250.C heat rating...

The AFR heads are gorgeous. They werenít CHEAP, not by any stretch, but at the price point Iím surprised to see fully CNC machined ports AND combustion chambers. That being said, there are a couple spots where there wasnít enough casting for the tool to hit. Despite being a cynic at heart Iím saying their castings are so tight the tool couldnít make a cut. In any case these heads are light years better than the Speedmaster parts. Thereís no thread inserts. I donít foresee ever needing to repair the threads in what appears to be a fantastic casting with well-conceived machining. If so, IíLL get to decide what sort of insert to repair them with. So be it if MY repair winds up being a helicoil set that I bought in the lawnmower repair section at Loweís.

Itís not a worthwhile expense to spare...

Anyhow... Iíve never had as much on the line as I have now. I made a budget pre-coronavirus and Iím HAPPY Iím still within that. Iíve paid upfront far less than a lot of guys in my position are willing to pay on a note for a driver. Iím gonna have a really nice, $25k, 30-year old truck after this. Everything is bought and paid for.

The engine is gonna be tight. I did build a Yamaha FJ1200 engine that was unbeatable in AHRMAís ďBattle of the TwinsĒ series. As ridiculous as I thought that FJ engine was at the time, I didnít have 1/3 the options I have on this thing. I had ONE crank option... ultimately based off a re-ground stock crank. Rods sized to fit. No option for throw. Pistons re-worked to fit a reworked factory head. The head was decked for improved squish... but there were no options for combustion chamber volume. No options for different sized pistons to address a different CC volume. There werenít cam styles to consider... or valve configuration... or springs with deference to either.
DOHC, spring under bucket configuration. No other option. Adjustable cam sprockets, sure... to work with ONE POSSIBLE valve-train.
I missed the two-stroke era... a fact I lament, because I like tinkering... and two-strokes=tinkering. Iím sunk if the virus lockdowns requires more than the suburban out of me, but this will be my next project:

For those who donít, thatís the last street-legal two stoke to American shores. Yamaha RZ 350. Enough displacement to require a tag in all 50 states. The picture above is my bike many moons ago. Itís been in long term storage for a while. As much as I love motorcycles, theyíre detrimental to sane life... with children and mortgages, etc. Building a square body GM was supposed to be easy...

Itís not a hot-rod...

Right?!?

Please lord, let me get 40k miles trouble free...


Stay healthy and safe





Jeremy

Offline bd

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2020, 10:34:55 PM »
Told ya you'd be pleased!   ;D

Congrats!
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
87 R10 Silverado Fleetside 355 MPFI 700R4 3.42 Locker (aka Rusty, aka Mater)

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2020, 10:49:26 PM »
Theyíre SO NICE

Offline Shifty

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2020, 11:48:37 AM »
I've never been disappointed with AFR's heads!  (especially when Tony Mamo ports 'em)
87 V20 Standard Cab Longbed (current)

87 R30 3+3 Longbed (days of yore)

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2020, 02:19:41 PM »
Iím not likely to port these heads any more than AFR sent them to me. Theyíre beautiful. Iíd hazard a guess that the machined finish they ship with is likely an awesome finish for a carbureted application. My guess is that the striations left by the tool will add turbulence and help fuel atomize better. Not so much a concern for my fuel-injected application, but an interesting aside.

Another aside: years back a European fellow published his findings regarding engine break-in and intake port design. His page has since vanished from the internet, but at one point this guy was purportedly the best non-factory, Super Sport motorcycle engine builder in that world.
He subscribed to the ďPopsĒ Yoshimura school that an engine should be broken in as quickly as possible. His theory was to verify the engine was oiling and then to make progressively faster and harder runs up a long hill. Start off in lower gears and lower revs and add RPM and gear with each successive pull. Always full throttle, always working the engine as hard as you can. Start in second gear, keeping RPMs low, 3000-4500 RPM (17000 RPM motorcycle engines, remember.) Kill the bike and coast back down the hill. Third gear, 4500-6000 RPM. Fourth, 6-8500, fifth 8500-12,000 or so and if you still had room for sixth, run it out.
The point was to develop as quickly as possible, as much cylinder pressure as he could to force the rings to really ďbiteĒ the freshly honed cylinders.

His other perspective was that modern 600cc motorcycle engines had intake ports FAR larger than what the engine actually needed. This builder had taken to reducing the size of the intakes with something like JBWeld and then reporting those openings. He published head-to-head comparisons of his reworked heads against the factory heads and showed monstrous improvements. He also showed that, according to a flow bench, his heads didnít perform nearly as well as the factory stuff did. The perspective he arrived at was that outright flow is only one component of intake port design. Equally important, especially in a carbureted application, was a degree of turbulence that allowed the fuel and air to mix better.

As Iím not building a 10/10ís racing engine and expect to ďleave a lot on the tableĒ Iím not gonna invest myself too thoroughly in making the AFR ports any better than they came to me. That being said, I am interested if anyone knows of concrete theory to prove or disprove that guys findings. Iíd also be interested to know if forced induction applications work differently. It seems to reason with any kind of turbocharging, the flow characteristics would become more important than the turbulence created. I have nothing to substantiate that theory on though.

Iíve swapped waiting on heads for waiting on a cam. I went ahead and installed the ďoddĒ head today. It has to come back off for the cam, so itís really just an exercise. It went smoothly. Studs torqued in four increments to ARPís recommended 80 foot-pounds. I used plenty of ARP fastener assembly lubricant.



This was a welcome tip some internet guru suggested... labeling the torque sequence on the head to prevent having to keep looking at the book.

Pushrod guide plates and rocker studs are loosely installed, with thread sealant as recommended. AFR uses two-piece guide plates of their own design. Their instructions got me to this stopping point.

Another trick I like is to mark each fastener with a paint pen once itís fully torqued. I spun the engine over to check the torque on the mains and rods and marked them as well.

Things are coming together. Not quite at the rate I really want, but enough so that I can feel it.



Safe and healthy and sane.




Jeremy
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 04:10:51 PM by jeremy.farlow »

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2020, 08:16:27 PM »
I got a few minutes at the shop today. I believe I have arrived at the final cam, lifter, thrust bearing and timing set combination. For the cam button... Iím still figuring that out. The Miloden timing cover I plan to use isnít the roomiest thing ever. Thereís definitely not enough room for the Lunati needle roller button I have on hand. But! I also have a lathe... and stock to chuck in it.
Iíve got 4130 pre-hardened, if I want to try and remake the needle bearing button. Or, Iíve got oil-impregnated UHMW. Iím using the UHMW to figure the length, depth(?) of the button.

General consensus here as the rest of the internet that 0.010-0.015 cam end play is correct for a roller cam?

The cam needle thrust bearing pushes the lifters slightly off center, nowhere close to lifter contacting the next lobe. Cam journals are mostly in their bearings. I have the bronze plain bearing that came with the timing set that will correct the offset, but Iíd really rather have the needle roller set up

Pictures:






Pictures arenít in order, sorry... I started figuring out cam timing as well...

I want to be VERY SURE of the cam timing, so Iím thinking a day there. Not sure WHEN that day will come.

I also have a pushrod length checking kit on order from Jegs. The AFR heads want a .200-.250 longer pushrod. But the Comp cams roller lifters are SIGNIFICANTLY longer than stock replacement length.

Meaning pushrods are gonna wind up significantly shorter than stock. Likely a good thing overall, but I have some stock length Comp magnum pushrods that are worthless to me. Also have the GenVI Melling stock replacement roller cam with thrust plate and timing set.

Sorry BD.


I went back to work for a couple weeks this week... weíre building some prototypes in hopes that our inventions will allow the motion picture industry to restart.





Jeremy

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2020, 08:20:24 PM »
Wow. Iíve neglected this thread.

Itís been a month and a lot has happened:
















One of the cool things about the Edelbrock EFI is the ability to control two fans. I mean, itís not that advanced, but I get two outputs programmable according to water temp.

The truck already has an auxiliary fan. Iím gonna ditch the mechanical fan as well and have a decent electrical fan to replace it. Iím thinking of something right now, Iím not sure if or how crazy it is.

I want to do an electric water pump.
(I ordered it today)

I want to ditch the thermostat.
(Maybe unnecessary?)

And use the two Edelbrock fan outputs to control the E-fan and factory auxiliary fan.

With a 160-degree thermo-couple to turn on the electric water pump.

Iím thinking with a mechanical water pump and mechanical thermostat thereís some bypass through the thermostat, but quite frankly the water pump is just hammering against the thermostat until it opens.

Iíll assume bypass of electric pump vanes similar to the T-stat bypass. Added bonus that using a simple thermo-couple and relay to run the electric means the pump will keep running, regardless of ignition position, until the water temp drops below 160.

Iím thinking even without the electric water pump turning, water will still bypass and move around enough to prevent hot or steam pockets. Temp sensors are right by the T-stat housing. Thermo-couple will be right at the top of the radiator fill neck. Obviously fans turning doesnít matter if the pump isnít, so Iím thinking set the electric pump to turn on/off at 160 degrees.

Main fan turns on at 180-190-degrees and auxiliary fan turns on at 190-200-degrees.

And then after that, hope that maintaining 180-200 degrees in 90% of conditions is realistic.

Hope the auxiliary fan is enough after that.

Whatís the community think?


Be safe, stay healthy.




Jeremy

Offline JohnnyPopper

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2020, 11:03:28 PM »
It sounds feasible, but here are some questions:

Not sure of your rev in cooling, but in earlier revs, the bypass went through the heater exchange, allowing those in cold country to get the earliest heat generated by the engine. Might want to check out how yours is set up.

Second, maintaining Operating Temp is important for a lot of reasons. One being fuel efficiency.
Only have a Tstat can guarantee consistent OT.

Having said that, locating the Thermo-Coupler at the radiator may cause you issues- without circulation Parts of your engine may get real hot before the temperature reaches the TC, only to have the pump wildly move disparate temperatures of H2O from cooler parts of the system to them hoTTer ones. Snap Crackle Pop.

I would check the design rev of cooling system to see if there is indeed a suitable bypass in play. If there is, I would use a Tstat.

I would locate the TC at the Tstat housing or nearby.

Other than that, I love the idea of two fans with separate controls!

Looks like that beast will be on the road soon.
1957 Apache 3100 235 Inline 6, 3 on the tree
1973 C-20, 3+3 454 4BBL TH400  Water Injection
1978 K-10, 350 4BBL TH350 NP203 M.M. Part time Kit/Hubs
1980 C-10 under construction

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2020, 06:19:50 AM »
First off, none of the electric water pumps have provisions for the heater core, so Iíd have to ďTĒ off the upper and lower radiator hose... Iím thinking THERES my bypass.

I donít know why... but I hate the idea of thermostats. They just seem so old school. That said, I totally understand that especially fuel injection WANTS the engine to be HOT!

So it seems the recommendation is to maintain the thermostat? Okay... Iím down with that.

In that case Iím thinking I trigger the water pump off the EFI as well as the main fan... and then trigger the auxiliary fan from... something else, thermocouple, switch and relay... something.

I do like the idea of being able to walk away from a truck still making noises and doing cool down stuff. A) to mess with peoples heads... and B) because the hottest any engine ever gets is right after you shut it off...

I had an R6 race-bike years back. I could run 10-15 laps at Road Atlanta, Jennings, Roebling, any of the southern race tracks, in the summer, with no problems over heating. As soon as I came back into the pits, the thing would puke itís water all over the place. Every time. No coolant allowed, so no mess, etc... but embarrassing all the same. 

So a truck that keeps a fan running AND water pump circulating without the ignition makes me warm and squishy.



Be safe and stay healthy.



Jeremy

Offline ehjorten

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2020, 09:36:57 AM »
I wired my Dual Spal fans for my V3500 like the GM Factory did with 2006 and newer LS engines. They use 3 relays and run the dual fans in series for the low temp setting and then use the 3rd relay as a switching relay to run both fans in parallel for the high temp setting. That way I am always pulling air across the entire radiator. When the fans are running in series the current draw is...from memory now...I did test and measure, but can't remember the numbers exactly...like 6 Amps and they ran at something like half-speed.
-Erik-
1991 V3500 - Gen V TBI 454, 4L80E, NP205, 14 bolt FF, D60, 8" Lift on 35s
1977 K20 Silverado - 350, THM350, NP203, 14 bolt FF, D44, Stock Lift on 31s
1969 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe - EFI350, THM350
1968 Chevrolet Step-side Pickup - 300HP L6

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2020, 09:58:01 AM »
Iím having a little trouble visualizing the redundancy in what youíre describing... any chance youíve got a wiring diagram? It wonít bother me to have anything you can post here for reference by myself and the community.


Thanks
Be safe and stay healthy


Jeremy

Offline JohnnyPopper

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2020, 10:14:21 AM »
So Erik, GM did that stock? It is a great idea!

Relays are MacGyver's best friend!

I had a '63 Porsche tub that was 6v. Too old to find a 12 generator, long gone. Didn't want to convert to newer alternator and change out 90 lamps, so how can I run my 12v stereo and sub?

Relays!

I put in two deep cycle aircraft 6v batteries, used relays to run them parallel to charge, then in series them to fire the Musica!

After some hours, the Aux battery would fade, and the music wouldn't work. Flipped a switch that would energize a relay, now they're both being charged, and I used a micro LED to remind me they were in parallel.

Jeremy, I'll draw out a line diagram if Erick can't get to it.
1957 Apache 3100 235 Inline 6, 3 on the tree
1973 C-20, 3+3 454 4BBL TH400  Water Injection
1978 K-10, 350 4BBL TH350 NP203 M.M. Part time Kit/Hubs
1980 C-10 under construction

Offline ehjorten

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2020, 12:53:20 PM »
Jeremy;

Here is a link to a site that I just found that has the diagram: https://www.gmfullsize.com/threads/i-installed-2006-e-fans-on-my-2001.229730/

I tried using the 2006 fan setup, but my power steering box and hoses causes major interference to the Driver's side fan. To my surprise, the top mounts for the 2006 stock fan setup, bolted right up to my 1991 Top Radiator Supports, but the bottom had interference that would have had me trimming the fan, not just the shroud. So I designed up my own fan shroud and mounted a 16" SPAL on the Passener's side and a 12" SPAL on the Driver's side.

Here is a picture of my Fan Setup before I changed the connectors out to Metri-pack 480 sealed connectors.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:05:15 PM by ehjorten »
-Erik-
1991 V3500 - Gen V TBI 454, 4L80E, NP205, 14 bolt FF, D60, 8" Lift on 35s
1977 K20 Silverado - 350, THM350, NP203, 14 bolt FF, D44, Stock Lift on 31s
1969 Chevelle Malibu Sport Coupe - EFI350, THM350
1968 Chevrolet Step-side Pickup - 300HP L6

Offline jeremy.farlow

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Re: Multi port EFI 496
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 04:04:07 PM »
Thanks!!! Iíll definitely have a look... at this point Iím still working out some of those details.

Electric water pump is on the way.

Aeromotive in-tank fuel pump is on the way as well.
340 lph ďstealthĒ unit with 90-ohm level sender. Direct drop in for up to 800 HP.

Iíve got one 2200 CFM fan, 16Ē diameter. No matter what Iíll have to fab up a shroud. Iíd like to add another, smaller fan as well as keeping the auxiliary pusher fan that GM gave me.

Iím thinking I need some thermostat control over the water pump. Thereís no sense running it continuously, as thereís too much chance of over-cooling. Same goes for the fans. So the task is gonna be getting a signal to both the pump and fans to keep the engine between 180 and 200 degrees.

My fun today was to drop the fuel tank. Of course it was nearly full...


This is a thirty gallon tank (Iím pretty certain... RPO sheet indicates as much, and Iíve never put more than 28 gallons in)... but somehow I managed to fill (mostly) those 5-gallon jerry-cans 8 times?!? Sumpin ainít right here...

Hopefully I can get the last of the wiring done before the fuel pump gets in... then the truck should run?!?



Be safe and stay healthy



Jeremy