Author Topic: Building a pre-oiler  (Read 454 times)

Online jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2020, 10:46:49 PM »
Thank you for saying.
I really like your idea of prefiltering. Just like starting a fresh hydraulic system. Not a difficult step to take either.
I have a friend with a prefilter setup for hydraulics. Itís just fittings.

So now the goal is strained and filtered oil injected under pressure to my engine. Probably a couple of times. Verify as best Iím able, while the engine is on a stand, that everything gets oil.

After that there will be sitting... Iíve got to stuff the motor in itís hole etc. plumbing, wiring. Iíll leave the distributor out until last and spin the pump with a drill motor. After that Iíll keep the spark plugs and fuel pump fuse out and spin the engine on the starter a little bit.

After that the thing will have to run and self sustain. Iím using a roller cam, so I shouldnít need intensive cam break-in. Once the cam is broken in, or realistically once Iíve verified that I didnít IMMEDIATELY smear a cam lobe, the goal is to seat the piston rings as hard and fast as possible. ďPopsĒ Yoshimura said ďfast break-in, fast engineĒ... or something close to that. I plan on finding a goodly pitched hill and making my truck get up it as quickly as possible. Lather, repeat.
The point is to seat the rings against the cylinders as hard as I can. Making the engine develop big cylinder pressure is the way to do it. Make it work... as itís designed to do.

After all that Iíll probably drive this thing like a grandma.

Speak softly and carry a big stick.



Jeremy

Online bd

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2020, 10:47:31 AM »
  The 1 thing my machine shop told me to do once the motor built oil pressure (verified by the gauge and the valvetrain with the valve covers removed) was to rotate the motor by hand a few times then repeat the priming process.
  I'm not sure what this accomplished or if it was necessary.   Has anyone ever heard of this?

It's an effort to purge all of the air from the lube system and evenly distribute lubricating oil to all of the friction surfaces that don't rely on oil splash.  I think a better method is to supply a continuous oil feed while rotating the crankshaft slowly.  Albeit, all roads lead to Rome - the outcomes are similar.
Rich
It's difficult to know just how much you don't know until you know it.
In other words... if people learn by making mistakes, by now I should know just about everything!!!
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Online jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2020, 02:57:24 PM »
Thatís the base of my thinking with the pre-oiler... to force oil through the places designed to have pressurized oil in them, while also spinning the engine. Ideally to assure that oil has fully filled the bearings and there wonít be any metal on metal. I donít think itís absolutely necessary, but itís not so difficult to not consider. I have most of what Iíll need on hand.




Jeremy

Offline VileZambonie

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2020, 06:59:23 AM »
After you prime the engine, you should ALWAYS, spin the engine with the starter with the spark plugs removed, and verify your oil pressure gauge is reading pressure. You need to validate the engine's oiling system is working. A pre-lube system is fine but unnecessary for your engine. On some applications, the oiling system does require a method of pressurizing the system with a pre-lube charge vessel. It won't hurt unless you introduce something foreign into the system, but make sure your internal system is good to go because that is what matters.

Quote
Tight bearings because I plan on running a lightweight synthetic oil and changing it frequently.

Tight clearances, high volume pump, and lightweight oil  ??? Now you're scaring me
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Online jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2020, 11:56:26 AM »
As Iíve said from the beginning... the goal has never been outright power, the goal has been to build the most efficient BBC I can. A lighter synthetic oil is gonna have less parasitic losses... The only reason I can see to be worried about a high-volume pump would be in a car application with the necessarily smaller oil sump. Iíve got an 8-quart pan along with the oil cooler. Despite being listed as high-volume, Iím guessing only marginally higher volume than the stock pump.
Iím not at the shop to verify, but the bearing clearances are still written on the caps. Iíll take a look next time I turn the engine over. They struck me as being on the tighter side... as the machinist and I had discussed. I mentioned wanting to run lighter oil...

Iím learning and open to advice... as I wrote above, I thought building a Chevy would be a little easier than its turned out to be. Thereís too many options sometimes and I donít have the wealth of specific knowledge of this forum... thatís why Iím here. I fancy myself fairly intelligent... with a decent enough background to avoid making the worst mistakes. That said, Iím learning new every day.



Jeremy

Offline VileZambonie

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2020, 07:13:17 PM »
I don't think you should be building a big block with light weight oil in mind for efficiency especially when you are already obviously very concerned about oiling.

In my opinion, ditch the high volume oil pump and run a standard volume pump with your tight clearance bearings. Remember the main functions of the oil:

L - Lubricates
C - Cleans
C - Cools
C - Cushions
S - Seals

Light weight oils do not provide the cushion big blocks need.
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Online jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2020, 08:06:40 PM »
I think weíre missing each other coming here... I donít mean 0-weight oil... ever. I mean addressing the new realities from when this motor architecture was originally conceived. This engine ISNíT ever gonna see zero-weight oil. MAYBE 5-weight... in the winter.
That being said... although I cannot PROVE it, Iíd put money that the factory recommended 20w-50 in the summer. Honestly, Iíll do one better... the ORIGINAL specs on the architecture of the engine in discussion likely didnít factor multi-weight oil period. Better than 40-years later you have to look HARD for 20w-50. Itís OBSOLETE.
The new reality is that 15w-40 is a heavyweight oil, in 2020. Original factory specs were likely for straight-weight. Iím not talking about zero-weight, or castor-bean oil or negative weight royal purple changed every run as guaranteed by my sponsor... Royal Purple. 

I am saying that things have come a long way...

Iím certain I can and will change a 5w or 10w synthetic oil way more often than absolutely necessary. Iím certain, in MY experience that the INITIAL treatment of a fresh engine is the thing that concerns me the absolute most. Iím meticulous. Diligent. I didnít just FIND myself here. Iím not worried about KEEPING a motor running... been doing that for a while. Iím really the most worried about creating that initial, original bit of oil-film that will prevent metal-on-metal contact.

THATíS why Iím even here talking about a pressurized oiler.

Small pan, Iíd definitely understand concerns with a higher volume pump. Perhaps even if my end desire was a high-G application like autocross or the like. Even roundy-round racing... Iíve got none of that in mind. And even so... you guys have made me seriously rethink shooting pressurized oil through the engine.

All Iím getting at is weíve made a lot of advances since the ďbiblesĒ on these type motors were written. We have a different reality... a better reality strictly in terms of what we can pour in the crankcase.

I was talking to a farmer friend recently... heís now a diesel convert... and a Ford guy as a result. All that said he summed up our new reality wonderfully: ďgas engines last a lot longer these days. Fuel injection doesnít wash out the rings and ruin the oil and wear them out as quickly as a carburetorĒ...

The only gas engine Loran has is his old Ford tractor. Itís got a side draft carb, so little of thatís a concern. Iíve got EFI... not at all a concern for me.

Iím gonna spin the pump to replicate high-RPM running. Long enough to make sure the sump doesnít empty. To Vileís point about oil ďcushionĒ... totally heard. But seriously... in my experience I want to do everything I can to assure thereís oil present between crank journal, rod journal, and associated bearing. If thereís oil THERE, before the spark event takes off... KNOWING THAT is the goal. ASSURING THAT, since I really cannot KNOW it... seems the best idea.

I didnít admit before... the BOTT motor I build was the second attempt. I blew it up immediately the first time. It wasnít catastrophic... but it took complete reassembly to fix. All new bearings, despite only truly wiping one. Because on a motorcycle, if youíre gonna split the cases, you should put new bearings in. Personally, if Iíve gone that far Iíd put new bearings in anything. Cheap insurance. Point of this thread.
Despite chasing every thread in that BOTT engine... running wire through every galley I could see... the cases had sat. Outside... I have no idea of the Latin name, we call them dirt-dobbers in the south, colloquial, had made a home in a main oil galley. Fortunately it wasnít a catastrophic failure and that same crankcase and crank went on to do good things... the initial failure made an impression though. Iím open to a failure on this one... but Iíd just as soon not. It will be expensive. Even if I catch the tick and shut it down immediately.
Engines IDLE at hundreds of RPMís... they run at thousands. It doesnít take much loss of oil to ruin a bearing with those basic operating parameters. Iím talking about an engine just sustaining itself, not actually doing any OUTSIDE work. The reason everyone knows about zinc and ZDDP right now is because they HELP to assure that initial oil film. GIs in the pacific had to refill gas tanks on running Jeeps with no oil in the crankcase. The Jeep factory that built those motors wouldnít have had the same results.
The purpose of this post was to question the best way of assuring an initial oil film between bearing and ďspinning-partĒ... Regardless of pump or anything else that oil film is far easier to support than to build... and once youíre relying on an explosive event, with the pressures and speeds, thereís little, if any opportunity to correct.
I had a plan to build this thing... and a purpose. Even a philosophy, if you will. Iím not super worried about moving so much oil I starve the pump. Iím not worried about the oil being too thin. I AM worried about having oil between journal and bearing, before an 11:1 spark event takes things out of my hands.
Ultimately I want to go dry-sump... not because I need it, but because itís efficient. Itís a philosophy. I want to get the most from every gasoline molecule I feed this thing. I donít expect 30 MPG... thatís stupid. Not down a hill with a tailwind. But thin oil and fuel injection, high-compression, a lead-free right-foot and a scavenged, dry-sump may allow an honest 15 MPG... with a whole bunch of fun factor. 14 MPG sans dry-sump. And Iíll be able to say that I did it. The real point of this exercise is becoming keeping Jeremy sane through quarantine. I just donít want to blow it up before I can hammer on it.

#lowerexpectations

Beat the virus, stay healthy, stay safe.



Jeremy

Online jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2020, 01:45:39 PM »
Mains as listed on the block. I paid good money for these measurements, so Iím assuming theyíre correct.

1: 0.0035
2: 0.0035
3: 0.0030
4: 0.0035
5: 0.0045

He went a little big on #5 as is generally accepted. Tightest I can find anyone recommending is 0.0025. Loosest acceptable seems to be in the 0.0045 range. So I am trending tighter, but I donít think dangerously.




I want to emphasize Iím not trying to be combative. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge available to me on this forum. I want to emphasize equally that I do have my own knowledge base, enough so to embark on this journey with a philosophy. Part of that knowledge base includes the knowledge that things are substantially different now from when these engines were originally designed. In many ways far better now. Weíve got multi-weight synthetic oils. I want to take the best advantage I can of that fact.



Jeremy

Offline JohnnyPopper

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2020, 01:55:40 PM »
I think we're talking about two things:

Potential damage on commission, and,

Oil preference.

On the former, I make sure my bearings are coated with a viscous assembly lube at all points of metal to metal contact.

One that doesn't run out. Pre-lube with only oil will run out except for where gravity or vacuum holds it in.

One downside is that the oil will flush out the pre-lube.

On the latter, I go with my gut most of the time, based on research, experience, and feedback from other gear heads. Real scientific, I know, but it's worked for 40+ years.
1957 Apache 3100 235 Inline 6, 3 on the tree
1973 C-20, 3+3 454 4BBL TH400  Water Injection
1978 K-10, 350 4BBL TH350 NP203 M.M. Part time Kit/Hubs
1980 C-10 under construction

Offline VileZambonie

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2020, 04:57:19 PM »
Are you running a roller cam?
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Online jeremy.farlow

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Re: Building a pre-oiler
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2020, 05:49:00 PM »
Yes. Roller cam.


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