Post by: LTZ C20 on May 03, 2015, 02:53:24 pm
I started the build with a short block from ATK Performance Engines. I did alot of looking around and after checking out ATK's site and youtube videos, I decided to use their product. Once I got it and started checking it out, their product is really nice, great quality. It is an OE roller block for late 90's GM trucks. Here's a link to it on ATK'S site.
http://www.high-performance-engines.com/chevy-350-short-block-crate-engine-p/sp04.htm (http://www.high-performance-engines.com/chevy-350-short-block-crate-engine-p/sp04.htm)
Here it is when I brought it home.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/730de7fb7ae80178e77dc310c9ffded1.jpg)
Fresh out of the shipping pod.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/c905b9eceb99d90d4a86371ecb24b6dd.jpg)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 03, 2015, 04:00:53 pm
So here are the rest of the pics I have until I get more money for parts, mainly gaskets and a few other smaller things.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/f00c0a1599975c771447eeb8c595fa37.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/d867de1661edda3946f52869c2fa462d.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/f001fd3f11aa63ceb8c89b6e6d127093.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/3cec50229e2261830643be514933a320.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/03/56d776602e9725aa9c172435c13ceb84.jpg)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 04, 2015, 11:58:53 pm
Here's the kit I'm working with and the bolts that were provided.
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150123 (http://m.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150123)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/04/25e2c3ce777143b0e55eae401828e835.jpg)
Post by: rich weyand on May 05, 2015, 01:56:41 am
You might have metric bolts for a fractional hole, or vice versa. Some of them are close enough to seem right, and aren't, like 6mm bolt in a 1/4" hole. BTDT.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 05, 2015, 09:57:55 am
My second issue now is, there is a difference in opinion on the fitment of a double roller timing set. I called ATK, said I wanted to get a double roller for it. I asked them if there will be any fitment issues because I also wanted to use the factory replacement timing cover. They said a double roller will fit behind the stock plastic cover. So I said, "so if I call Summit and say I need a double roller for an OE roller block with an OE roller cam" I will be good to go. They said yes.
So I called summit, said "I need a double roller timing set for an OE roller block with an OE roller cam." They provided to two results, a Summit part # and a Comp Cams part #. The summit part has a note stating it will NOT fit behind stock plastic timing cover and the Comp part has a note that it will NOT fit behind stock timing cover. The Comp part does not specify steel or plastic cover.
So what the heck is going on here?! My old flat tappet cam engine had a double roller that fit behind the stock steel cover no problem. I don't understand. Here are the 2 parts.
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g6601-9/none/images (http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g6601-9/none/images)
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3136 (http://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-3136)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 06, 2015, 01:57:56 pm
Also, I called ATK back again this morning and now I have 1 vote for the plastic cover fitting over a double roller and 3 votes that it won't fit. The guy on the phone said a stock steel cover will fit over a double roller tho, so just gonna get 1 of those instead.
And maybe if I'm lucky I'll be able to order enough parts to get this thing all buttoned up and back in the truck. I miss it so much.
Post by: Edemich on May 06, 2015, 03:31:17 pm
My two cents.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 06, 2015, 09:04:52 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 07, 2015, 01:50:45 am
New (factory hardned) bolt LEFT, provided (phillips) bolt RIGHT. Also, incase anyone is wondering, the dimensions for these 2 bolts are "1/4-20-1/2".
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/5ffcdaa6cbda64b057db5aa03667a33e.jpg)
The bolt that almost broke at 15 ft lbs of torque.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/04078bbda9ed5bf9114fcbe038ca2095.jpg)
Also got the lifters, guides and spider plate installed. I also got the 3 bolts for the spider plate in the factory hardened design, they worked fine also. Their dimensions are "5/16-18-.635".
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/d2c5c8cce15907fa31bf501b8ee896d1.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/937e52238006f2e7734e7b7717737697.jpg)
Here is a closer look at the spider holding down the guides, I've never installed 1 of these before, it looks right but please tell me if I am wrong.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/4775d8721a3a44bb5085b8b63bdf6e64.jpg)
And 2 bonus picks for you, 1 of my gf cleaning up the heads with my new Super Scraper, I highly recommend anyone who does a lot of work with gaskets to get an original Super Scraper. They are AMAZING. Not to mention the manufacturer will sharpen them for free.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/184d4fffd774151fae5744a839ffbc46.jpg)
This is true love and support, once I showed her what needed to be done, I wasn't allowed to do any of it, she wouldn't let me lol. She did it all herself and did a GREAT job at that!
Lastly, a peek at the the 40 over flat tops.(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/06/000b60f8de45ffc87a3f4bcc956a0277.jpg)
Post by: enaberif on May 07, 2015, 08:47:59 am
Heck there has been know issues with double rollers and metal covers.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 07, 2015, 09:40:21 am
The first engine had a double and stock steel cover so I'm just gonna run it.
Post by: 78BIG-TEN on May 07, 2015, 09:41:36 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 07, 2015, 09:43:07 am
Post by: enaberif on May 07, 2015, 10:04:31 am
Hey I think that's the issue here. The engine manufacturer said use a steel cover if you use a double roller. The double roller I plan to use says won't fit behind stock plastic covers but says nothing about the steel ones. I picked up a steel one last night, looks like the set will fit just fine.
The first engine had a double and stock steel cover so I'm just gonna run it.
Well your using the retaining ring for the cam so it can't move anywhere. That is one purpose of the timing cover as well so by using the steel one you should have no issues.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 07, 2015, 10:26:09 am
It's good to finally get a few votes 1 way or the other, for a while I had 1 vote for either and it was a stand off, I didn't know what to do lol.Hey I think that's the issue here. The engine manufacturer said use a steel cover if you use a double roller. The double roller I plan to use says won't fit behind stock plastic covers but says nothing about the steel ones. I picked up a steel one last night, looks like the set will fit just fine.
The first engine had a double and stock steel cover so I'm just gonna run it.
Well your using the retaining ring for the cam so it can't move anywhere. That is one purpose of the timing cover as well so by using the steel one you should have no issues.
Post by: BBM3 on May 07, 2015, 06:23:18 pm
What are you doing for fuel? Re-using your TBI?
I'm following along with great interest.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 07, 2015, 06:31:36 pm
Post by: BBM3 on May 10, 2015, 01:15:03 pm
I would love to have fuel injection. My carbureted truck runs noticeably different (in a bad way) when i drive from home at 8000' to town at 6000' ASL.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 10, 2015, 01:19:40 pm
Post by: BBM3 on May 10, 2015, 01:27:29 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 10, 2015, 01:31:08 pm
Post by: BBM3 on May 10, 2015, 02:57:40 pm
Your ear. ;)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 10, 2015, 03:02:52 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 10, 2015, 06:02:48 pm
This is not the exact unit I'm considering but most GM ones are about the same.
Any ideas here guys? Theories about how and where to mount it? Directly in the air box or remotely and supplied with a vacuum hose?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/10/ba2a7a3008a67c7a3f6de3ad328bb117.jpg)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 11, 2015, 02:11:58 pm
Post by: BBM3 on May 11, 2015, 02:53:07 pm
The way to get a reading was to press the reset button on the top while the engine was idling. As soon as I shut the engine off it indicated a clogged filter and always remained that way even when the engine was started again until I pressed the reset button.
I choose to spend a couple more seconds to pull and visually inspect the filter element.
An inexpensive vacuum gauge with a tap after the air filter would accomplish the same with greater accuracy.
Looking forward to more pictures of your engine build.
Post by: enaberif on May 11, 2015, 03:01:39 pm
On a side note here, I'm considering adding an Air Filter Service gauge. Usually they are mounted on the engine side of an air filter box, but these older systems are directly on top so that idea can be a little challenging I think, to mount it properly it would be in the direct flow of air into the throttle body which I think will present inaccurate readings.
This is not the exact unit I'm considering but most GM ones are about the same.
Any ideas here guys? Theories about how and where to mount it? Directly in the air box or remotely and supplied with a vacuum hose?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/10/ba2a7a3008a67c7a3f6de3ad328bb117.jpg)
My understanding of these is they measure the amount of air being pulled between the airbox filter and the throttle body.
The dirtier the air filter the harder it has to suck which causes this to show you a "Change" but if the filter is new it shows "Good".
If you have a airfilter box and a tube between your filter and throttle body insert it in there.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 01:16:01 am
Enaberif, I have the stock air cleaner so to mount it like that I would have to hook it up so that it sourced air from the spacer between the throttle body and air cleaner housing. Not a problem, just wasn't sure what the proper location would be.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 02:22:27 am
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/4d3eea7dac1ba1590f1d9e51aa140f51.jpg)
Check out the adjustability on that crank gear! 9 positions! That is a Summit Racing true double roller timing set, was about 35 dollars I think, steel cam gear, billet steel crank gear and suprising actually had installation instructions labeled by Trick Flow. So, it appears this set is made by Trick Flow for Summit Racing. Very good product for the price, half the money when compared to a similar set from Comp and is actually twice as adjustable if needed.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/1294580f2798e35c93eb564fb6a4f488.jpg)
The cover was installed and torqued down to a heavy 7 ft lbs. Now, I'm not to sure on this part, the edges all seem to be sealed except for around the dowel pin areas. It just doesn't seem right, see what I mean.
Looks ok here,
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/285f4049a982b524d43f7fe2d4981b92.jpg)
Doesn't look right here,
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/11a5922cd184e16f25f1a116ca23cc79.jpg)
Also the oil pump bolt stripped out the first 2 threads in the block.... I swear I'm cursed by bolts.... going to get between a 1/4 in and 1/2 in longer bolt to grab the threads. I've got mixed theories on what the torque spec is for this bolt. I've seen 12-15, 35 & 65 ft lbs. I would love a proper and correct answer to this. I'm thinking 65 is way to much, possibly why the threads stripped out.
Here's a shot with the heads and intake on. Intake is just resting, heads have their bolts but are loosely fitted, will be torqued tomorrow night, those ARP bolts I know for FACT will tighten and torque properly the first time!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/a452b4899101db06b0ceb90f303708ee.jpg)
Trial and error friends! Trial and error... That's how we learn, after all this is only my second full engine build and I didn't even put the bottom end together haha.
Post by: enaberif on May 12, 2015, 06:58:38 am
Also before you get to carried away... Make sure you rotate the engine so that the top dot is at 12 and bottom is at 6. The way you have it now is that it is on the #6 firing order and by rotating it puts it on the #1 firing order.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 09:18:14 am
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/4d3eea7dac1ba1590f1d9e51aa140f51.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/1294580f2798e35c93eb564fb6a4f488.jpg)
The cam timing is off....
For zero advance, the crank gear is installed properly. BUT, the zero timing mark at the outer circumference of the crank gear should align with the timing mark on the cam gear. With the timing marks aligned, the crankshaft key should be at the 2 o'clock position.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 09:20:33 am
Also, I will rotate the engine over to #1. Just haven't done it yet. Got to late last night and I work all week. Can't be up till 12 every night, I'll fall asleep on the job!
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 09:26:57 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 09:27:55 am
I tried that, but it wouldn't align with the cam gear correctly. UNLESS I'm doing that wrong, which is a definite possibly.(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/4d3eea7dac1ba1590f1d9e51aa140f51.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/1294580f2798e35c93eb564fb6a4f488.jpg)
The cam timing is off....
For zero advance, the crank gear is installed properly. BUT, the zero timing mark at the outer circumference of the crank gear should align with the timing mark on the cam gear. With the timing marks aligned, the crankshaft key should be at the 2 o'clock position.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 09:32:51 am
Incidentally, consider installing a cam bolt lock plate. And, apply red Loctite to the cam bolts at final assembly.Yea I got 1 of those too, the bolt holes don't line up. It's got the alignment for a flat tappet cam gear. Isn't anywhere near close for an OE roller cam. I didn't even choose the 1 I bought, 1 of the summit guys recommended, I told him it was for an OE roller, he said his info said it would fit, yet last night it was no where near close. So I called summit and a different guy said that since the OE rollers use a thrust plate behind the gear that a lock plate on the outside face of the cam gear is not needed. The outside lock plate is for when an engine isn't using a thrust plate, such as a flat tappet cam. I'm going to call their tech department back again today though to be double sure.
Also, I did use loctite.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 10:43:09 am
Incidentally, consider installing a cam bolt lock plate. And, apply red Loctite to the cam bolts at final assembly.Yea I got 1 of those too, the bolt holes don't line up. It's got the alignment for a flat tappet cam gear. Isn't anywhere near close for an OE roller cam. I didn't even choose the 1 I bought, 1 of the summit guys recommended, I told him it was for an OE roller, he said his info said it would fit, yet last night it was no where near close. So I called summit and a different guy said that since the OE rollers use a thrust plate behind the gear that a lock plate on the outside face of the cam gear is not needed. The outside lock plate is for when an engine isn't using a thrust plate, such as a flat tappet cam. I'm going to call their tech department back again today though to be double sure.
Also, I did use loctite.
All the lock plate does is guarantee that the cam bolts don't loosen. It will also retain a cam thrust button when one is used. However, a thrust button is redundant to a thrust plate. No need to use both.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 11:33:00 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 11:36:50 am
Head bolts I've read get a lite coating of oil, others says some high temp sealer/loctite. The intake I've found says to use sealer/loctite also, but only on the more inboard, center section bolts.
Not sure which is the correct method for either set.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 12:50:42 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 02:17:56 pm
All but the endmost intake manifold bolt holes open into the valley and are exposed to oil splash. All of the head bolt holes open into the block water jackets and are exposed to coolant. Chase all of the bolt hole threads then rinse them thoroughly with Berryman's B12 or similar - blow dry with compressed air. If reusing head bolts DO NOT chase the bolt threads - use a wire wheel instead - even better, use new ARP bolts. Apply ARP PTFE Thread Sealant, P/N 100-9904 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-9904) to all of the bolt threads and under the bolt heads.
THIS is the information I was hoping for! Excellent, thank you BD. I knew the second half of what you said already, but which bolts need sealant and which sealant to use I did not know.
All of the holes for the head bolts are clean already and I'm reusing my ARP bolts. I have the torque numbers on the spec sheet that came with the heads for both the head and intake bolts.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 02:39:56 pm
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/65d0b8a75f58651cb81eaf7e36b2844a.jpg)
Post by: enaberif on May 12, 2015, 03:35:23 pm
This is the stuff I use and a little goes a long ways... http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-37615-Thread-Sealant-Stick/dp/B0015PJCHG
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 03:56:36 pm
Any good Teflon paste sealant should seal the bolt threads (e.g., Loctite, 3M, GM, etc). PTFE sealant also lubricates the threads to reduce torquing friction, just not as much as Ultra-Torque.
-------------------- ---------------------
And, don't forget to correct that cam timing before you button it up. You should have no problem aligning those timing marks.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 04:15:36 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 05:42:26 pm
I'll be sure to adjust the crank gear also, thanks for catching that.
Post by: enaberif on May 12, 2015, 06:45:14 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 07:11:31 pm
Should copper spray gasket be used anywhere? I've heard mixed reviews about its use also.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 07:24:28 pm
Post by: enaberif on May 12, 2015, 07:34:15 pm
I don't think that will be an issue.
Should copper spray gasket be used anywhere? I've heard mixed reviews about its use also.
I didn't use any. Just put a light coating around the water jackets on the head side which will act as a way to hold the gasket then just install manifold as per normal.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 08:20:52 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 08:59:21 pm
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/354e8f4f314b14c8dd78aada0607e00f.jpg)
See the 2 marks are aligned now the way BD said to do it but notice the crank keyway is now almost in the 1 o'clock position.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 09:16:10 pm
Ok cool. Now what's a valley margin and a China wall?
The valley is the enclosed area of the block located directly below the intake manifold. It houses the lifters, spider, pushrods, etc. The China Walls are the ~3/8" wide fore and aft ends of the valley that meander between the two cylinder heads. They are nicknamed China Walls, because they are narrow and meander like... (you guessed it) the Great China Wall. What I referred to as 'the valley margins' (not technical terminology by any means and for lack of a better description at the time) are the lower edges of the intake manifold flange that form the narrow sealing surfaces along the bottom of the intake ports. The idea is to help ensure that no oil is drawn past the gasket from the valley into the intake ports. Sealant sparingly smeared around the intake ports is not really necessary with composite gaskets, but hedges your bet (at least, in my 'umble estimation) that the gaskets will seal against vacuum leaks.
However, as previously posted, silicone sealant is highly recommended around the coolant crossover ports at the four corners of the intake manifold, because these are common locations of gasket deterioration and subsequent coolant leaks. I recommend Ultra-Copper and Ultra-Grey, since I found both to provide good adherence and decent service life as well as easy removal and cleanup when the time comes.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 09:20:50 pm
Got the timing gear loose from the crank. If I line up the outer 0 marker of the crank sprocket with the dot on the cam sprocket, it makes the key way in the crankshaft not be straight up and down. Is this ok?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/354e8f4f314b14c8dd78aada0607e00f.jpg)
See the 2 marks are aligned now the way BD said to do it but notice the crank keyway is now almost in the 1 o'clock position.
Look at the crank gear. There are two "0" marks - inner and outer. The crank keyway should align with the inner "0" mark AND the cam gear should align with the outer "0" mark.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 09:25:08 pm
Post by: enaberif on May 12, 2015, 09:30:37 pm
Here is a good shot of what it should like and before you do this.. get some acetone and clean ALL the surfaces extremely well as this will help bond the rtv as well. Do this with your cylinder heads and intake manifold as well.
http://s2.photobucket.com/user/gtamatt/media/IMAG0909_zps91748115.jpg.html
And yes when the crank gear is set properly the key should roughly be pointing in the #1 cylinder direction.
Post by: bd on May 12, 2015, 09:34:54 pm
... I was putting my truck together when it was -3* Celsius outside lol.
BBRrrrrrrrrrr!
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 09:53:27 pm
I'll use it her the copper spray gasket or the permatex ultra black, most likely the ultra black.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 12, 2015, 10:00:59 pm
When the crank gear is properly installed and the cam/crank timing marks are aligned, the crank keyway will point to about 1:30.BINGO!!!! Got it fella's. I'm pretty familiar with assembly but all this little stuff and the confusion with the timing set had me all messed up. But now I got it and I fixed the timing cover problem so that will be better too. Assembly time! Thanks guys, your awesome.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 13, 2015, 02:02:19 am
I used a tack coat of copper spray on the timing cover gasket so that I could hold it to the block and position it equally and squarely over all the bolt holes, this also let me put the cover on and get all the bolts started without the gasket slipping n sliding all over the place like a wet noodle. The cover looks properly sealed now.
Timing set installed:
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/204a083b68203bf321bd407bb361c6f3.jpg)
Cover mounting flanges after straightening, also they came out a little nicer than the pics because I did some gentle beating on the cover with it pressed against the block so I got each area flush as I could against its coresponding block flange areas. (If any of that even made sense??) Note: the gasket wasn't installed in the pic but was on final assembly.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/a6a4b96e09bfafb2f1bf6c505255e018.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/ecc9323972be32835e5352d345c2ebf5.jpg)
This pic only represents the order in which the cover bolts were tightened down. I'm not sure if it's the correct sequence but based off the reason behind the "outerward spiral" method with the heads and intake, I found it to be an affective method here too.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/12/232a4eebf97dd3ec5852463dd1ffdcb3.jpg)
Post by: enaberif on May 13, 2015, 06:36:14 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 13, 2015, 09:08:05 am
Post by: rich weyand on May 13, 2015, 12:43:15 pm
Just for your peace of mind....
I thought so but checked GM service manual to be sure. Keyway should be at 45* (1:30 position), which is TDC of #1 cylinder on all GM V-8s, and timing marks should be crank at 12:00 and camshaft at 6:00.
The last picture you showed matches the pic in the GM service manual exactly.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 13, 2015, 01:40:07 pm
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/13/568d14fbfdb01646b9a5923c50d942aa.jpg)
Now that's it's done right, I sound like I'm beating a dead horse haha.
Also I got the oil pump bolt problem figured out, got a new bolt, correct length and GM spec is 65 ft lbs. So the other bolt was just 3/8 to short, that's why it stripped the first 2 threads, it will be good tonight tho.
More progress tonight fella's, for now that's all I got!
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 14, 2015, 09:26:48 pm
Post by: enaberif on May 14, 2015, 09:48:45 pm
Post by: bd on May 14, 2015, 10:45:35 pm
New question gentlemen, TO or NOT TO apply thread locker red to the header studs on the side that screws into the cylinder heads?? I can't decide, is it better for them to be permanent or not? I don't want them to ever rattle loose but what if someday I need to get 1 or all of them out??
The thing about studs - they can work loose at both ends - lol. Install them into the heads with red. Double-nut them to back them out if you need to. If they're stainless steel studs use nickel anti-seize on the nuts.
Post by: FlatBlack77 on May 14, 2015, 11:07:25 pm
the header studs will be just fine as said above its good and tight but not permanent.
I have been enjoying this thread man keep up the good work!
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 14, 2015, 11:51:34 pm
FlatBlack, thanks bud! I'm trying but things are being difficult. Plus I'm running out of money lol.
Post by: bd on May 15, 2015, 12:12:01 am
i used the red on my valve cover studs but i wouldnt recommend it on anything smaller than that. ive used Red on smaller things and ended up snapping them before the stuff let go.
the header studs will be just fine as said above its good and tight but not permanent.
I have been enjoying this thread man keep up the good work!
On 5/16" down to about a #10 machine apply blue, any smaller use purple. The green sleeve retainer is the one you have to be careful using. But, even it will shear with adequate heat and sweat.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 19, 2015, 02:58:11 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 19, 2015, 05:31:44 pm
I had an issue with the engine late last week. Thursday night I think it was, I broke a tap off in the cylinder head, in one of the exhuast bolt holes. So after lots of swearing up and down the street and almost throwing tools across the yard, I had to try and fix it.
I tried a few things that I found online but nothing worked. I was pretty much looking at sending it to a shop to have an EDM job done to get it out BUT one of the guys here at work suggested trying to burn in out with a plasma cutter.
I know what your all thinking! Plasma cutter and aluminum can't end well right?? Apparently they used to do it here when the guy with the plasma worked here. So after some himming and hahhing about whether it should do it, I decided to go for it. Other wise I just gotta spend at least another 100 bucks at a machine shop.
My buddy has a plasma cutter and so we tried it very carefully and IT WORKED GREAT!! It was slow going but we took our time and got it blasted to pieces and out without hurting the head. So then after that, I drilled it out, tapped it, installed a time-sert and installed the header studs. Problem solved, unfortunately I had already bolted the head on so it came back off, had to clean the bolts again and the new head gasket is now useless and got to get another one.
Here are some pics
Plasma cutter setup.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/c52c2935a55db9136bed658af4fc3589.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/4f5a2c13535f3a7c892a9d3b2e04d8f7.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/7542dc77d3b9b0a5800a0ecf5381124a.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/a019243f28bf9b51b07932ee70c22476.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/2319c857168382080fd55e733129e368.jpg)
All fixed!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/19/85462f9eb09579c15a0d32a9c831d210.jpg)
Also, got the balancer and crank pulley on, got the measurements for the pushrods and tonight I should be ordering another head gasket, the pushrods and a little bracket to support the oil pump pickup tube. So when that's stuff is here, it will be time to finally finish building this thing, get it buttoned up and hopefully I can get it back in the truck this weekend. If I'm really lucky, it might be running and drive able for the start of next week.
Post by: enaberif on May 19, 2015, 06:18:03 pm
I did something stupid with my wheel studs and I was so mad I left the truck be for a week then went back welded up the stud holes and fixed them.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 19, 2015, 07:31:20 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 21, 2015, 02:18:30 pm
Last included:
1- installed oil pump pickup tube brace
2- oil pan installed
3- passenger side head bolted back on with new gasket
4- oil filter pre-filled and installed
5- intake installed
6- new push rods in and rockers snugged up just to hold them in place
7- took my old spark plugs clamped them in the vice and then wacked them with a hammer and busted the porcelain off, now I have just the steel body part with an electrode stuck in the end. I then used these to plug the spark plug holes during final assembly and install into truck. So they aren't spark plugs anymore, they are just plugs now lol.
8- got new spark plugs, oil breather filter element, 2 gallons of coolant, new pcv valve and new throttle cable from work also. That stuff will all be installed once the engine is back in truck obviously.
As always, pictures!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/129d9016f0ff4b40557a5b75dfc0fd4d.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/a665af090beb446a60892aef90061165.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/2e5aaab0e5607928dbb69f301ede012f.jpg)
In the side pics you can see my hillbilly spark plug hole "plugs".
For your guys enjoyment, this was my rookie move. I got the oil pan on and the engine rolled back up right and was about to start on the intake when I realized I didn't put the plastic retaining collar on the end of the oil pump stub shaft. What an idiot I felt like!! But I was able to quickly pull the pan back off, put the collar on and then reattach the pan. No harm, no foul, just a few extra steps and some extra practice tightening pan bolts.
Tonight will consist of setting the valve lash for the hydraulic lifters, putting the valve covers and serpentine brackets back on and setting the engine up for top dead center so when it's in the truck I can easily stab the distributor. Then it's just go over everything and make sure I've covered all my bases. This has been a few months comming and with a 3 day weekend, I should be driving this sweet piece by monday.
Post by: enaberif on May 21, 2015, 02:32:33 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 21, 2015, 03:13:44 pm
Post by: bd on May 21, 2015, 05:10:57 pm
Give those shiny black oxide coated head bolts a dash of paint or they'll gradually turn a pretty shade of rust. ;)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 21, 2015, 06:33:16 pm
I'm trying to figure out what the best base timing should be at. It has a Comp cams 08-412-8 cam.
Post by: rich weyand on May 21, 2015, 11:57:50 pm
Haha yea if it sounds anything like the old one it's gonna sound great. As for the bolts, that's not really a major concern at the moment, I'll worry about it later.
I'm trying to figure out what the best base timing should be at. It has a Comp cams 08-412-8 cam.
Pretty much all small blocks like 34-36 with the mechanical all in. So, What's the distributor mechanical advance? 20? Then set the base timing at 14* to start, and see where you're at. You could set it to 12* for break-in if you are worried about it, then seek the knock point later. More advance is always good, up to the knock point, then back off a couple for safety margin.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 22, 2015, 12:07:54 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 22, 2015, 09:08:04 am
Enaberif, this is for you bud.
Ps, ignore the washing machine haha.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/22/5563bc978d59e6ea35cfadd6cf7032eb.jpg)
Post by: enaberif on May 22, 2015, 09:36:09 am
Oooh dipstick porn! So shiny.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 22, 2015, 09:48:27 am
Keep your twisted dipstick fantasies to yourself! Lol
Post by: rich weyand on May 22, 2015, 09:01:13 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 22, 2015, 09:03:21 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 23, 2015, 03:59:14 pm
Post by: rich weyand on May 24, 2015, 01:05:26 am
Here's the page from the parts manual. Download it and then let me know so I can delete it, because it's pretty big. http://users.rcn.com/weyand/smalls/throttlecable.pdf
Part number is GM 1248083, which some sites say is 25", but that doesn't seem long enough to follow that path, so go figure.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 24, 2015, 02:17:46 am
Btw, page downloaded, thanks.
Post by: bd on May 24, 2015, 09:47:56 am
The P/N for the CK-1, 2, 3, et al, w/350 is 336935 and as stated is ~25" long. Don't forget that the accelerator cable does a Ferris Wheel loopty-loop to allow for engine movement. It sounds like the service cable you picked up is correct.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 24, 2015, 11:01:58 am
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/dde0826e734d5fd7c8305ffb57f64dea.jpg)
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 24, 2015, 11:05:38 am
That made me chuckle.... The page Rich linked is, though titled for 73-78 ALL..., an illustration of a G van (P/N 336936), which is 81.45" in length. GM did that because the firewall was forward of the carburetor. It went all the way around the barn to get through the front door! And, believe it or not, that was the second design! :oLol it was nice to look at the pictures tho! Thanks guys, looks like I'm good then.
The P/N for the CK-1, 2, 3, et al, w/350 is 336935 and as stated is ~25" long. Don't forget that the accelerator cable does a Ferris Wheel loopty-loop to allow for engine movement. It sounds like the service cable you picked up is correct.
Seperate question, the exhuast studs, their nuts should torque to factory specs for a bolt? Lighter torque rating? 35? 15? I don't know, they are in aluminum heads.
Post by: bd on May 24, 2015, 11:12:28 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 24, 2015, 11:30:16 am
Post by: bd on May 24, 2015, 11:40:26 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 24, 2015, 11:43:25 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 24, 2015, 03:00:48 pm
Also, my old big heavy starter fits! So I didn't have to get a new one, that's always good.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/9076cbc43f059f89b15c38b98f73231d.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/bb0dc2c6a5b671c0dbee02191c6d96f0.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/4f6178e7985469f0cbb473125ff4c6cb.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/20e89a4a11b0d93fe98f6719f5bf65b3.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/3e8d4354de024a88f861519b2c62cc5a.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/0edd6f629f519967db709b949bfc3714.jpg)
Yesterday morning we had a little accident, I was unloaded the engine hoist out of my mom's truck, it went all humpty dumpty and fell over and unfortunately smacked the truck pretty good on the way down on the right hand bed side. :(
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/9706ceb833f9ce96d9971e3e8b28001e.jpg)
The big 1 over the wheel well is pretty deep, it creased the sheet metal. Some spots are down to bare steel, like the grey spot.
Post by: FlatBlack77 on May 24, 2015, 09:32:13 pm
but at least your making awesome progress! it looks great
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 25, 2015, 12:16:04 am
Today saw the completion, pretty much everything that needs to be hooked or attached. Spark plugs, disti, TBI unit, wiring harnesses plugged in, ac comp and power steering pump on, fuel lines and exhuast. Only things left are plug wires put on the plugs, cooling system topped off, oil fill and then just a few little things and it will be ready to see if it runs.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 27, 2015, 01:49:31 am
First off, the nuts included with the header studs were flange nuts, to get those to clear the header tubes, I had to go to the hardware store and get flange - less regular grade 8 nuts. Also, I had to grind a flat onto 1 side of 4 washers as to clear the tubes. Then I had to dimple the tubes at the inside bolt hole on the tubes for cylinders 1, 7, 2 & 8. So the 4 corner cylinder, their tubes needed dimples to clear the nuts. Once that all got done, the headers when on pretty easy.
Next, I had problems for some reason getting the 3 bolts for the power steering pump onto the serpentine bracket. They went together easy when I did the serp orginally, so for whatever reason they were being difficult, I took the lock washers off 2 of the bolts and it then worked after some careful adjusting.
Lastly, after first start up and checking over everything multiple times, it was time to drive it! The drive went well, good power, ran really good, response is immediate, fans were comming on as needed, all was good....until I smelt burning oil, got home and found the left valve cover was puking!! That's right folks, I pulled the cover off and the seal was just all loosie goosie and flopping around like a wet noodle. I cleaned the cover, the gasket, the head, applied a bead of rtv sealer to both the head side and cover side, no more leaks! I found a small little spot at the front of the oil pan gasket where the block, front cover and pan all meet. It wasn't puking but was a small bleeder, I cleaned the area and applied a small smear of rtv to the joint, that sealed that up as well. I applied rtv to all of these joints originally, again for no apparent reason the rtv didn't shmush into the left front corner. Fixed now tho.
That's all the malfunctions I had. I believe my valves may benefit from being adjusted while engine is running, that I'm considering letting a professional friend do for me, some times you can do all the big stuff but when it comes down to fine tuning things juuuuust right, it's reassuring and less stressful to let a very experienced pro do it. Overall tho, she runs really good and feels strong and powerful. I drove her last night and today, back and forth to work and home, no problems as of yet to report.
My girlfriend took a video of the first start up, I will post that as soon as I get it from her.
More pictures!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/8bc7b35ab17f59b2f269482a55d0b52f.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/3a5508655def57d4d5694945721d9495.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/e6f49c6788888cb79b982bc9ec9c5753.jpg)
The truck, after pulling it out after sitting since February. Got it all washed up and clean and shiny!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/7c572dc4deda4cfe9d662f9d82394692.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/5fe09a026e141c6da18e718e076f0598.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/251bcac67d4cbe4b3daeb61c03f9bf5d.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/8152a2de31ef592361a55e7ee5cf8eac.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/597cfd8692eb0bf1540304cf811739ca.jpg)
I thought you guys would really like some pics of the truck itself and not just what's under the hood. I'm soooo happy that I have my truck back, it feels really good to be back in MY truck. Its like getting your happy place back lol.
Thank you so much to BD, Enaberif, BBM3, Rich W and everyone else for your much appreciated responses and help. This is exactly why I love being a member and supporter here. You guys are great, thanks everybody!!
Post by: enaberif on May 27, 2015, 08:27:03 am
Even installed when it was -5 Celsius my truck has no leak issues at all.
Post by: bd on May 27, 2015, 09:06:02 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 27, 2015, 09:59:30 am
Good job. Truck looks good and engine looks good. Regarding those leaks that is exactly why on my truck I put nothing but Felpro blue gaskets.I only use Felpro gaskets, I used the ones recommended for the head by Dart. Oh well. It's good now.
Even installed when it was -5 Celsius my truck has no leak issues at all.
Thanks, it really looks half decent when it's clean.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 27, 2015, 10:00:03 am
It's a GREAT feeling when it all comes together. Good job!It is! Thank you!
Post by: FlatBlack77 on May 27, 2015, 03:31:17 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 27, 2015, 03:31:44 pm
nice work man it pays off!Thank! Yes it does!
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 28, 2015, 12:12:50 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 28, 2015, 12:17:19 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 28, 2015, 09:42:44 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 28, 2015, 09:54:54 pm
Post by: bd on May 28, 2015, 10:05:44 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 28, 2015, 10:09:02 pm
Post by: FlatBlack77 on May 28, 2015, 10:33:06 pm
i couldnt for the life of me find the torque specs for the one piece gasket when i put mine in recently. i looked on felpros sight and googled the heck out of it with no luck. my service manuals said whatever number for the small bolts and whatever number for the larger bolts. i forget the numbers. one of my books said that even though the bolts could all handle the same torque numbers you cant make them all that tight because it would crush the cork gaskets(old manuals lol)
so long story short i tightened all the bolts to the higher number and i went around like 5 times in a criss cross patern. i did the RTV in the corners and i had the short gasket. not a drop has leaked
it is possible its the oil pan you are using
Post by: bd on May 28, 2015, 10:47:21 pm
it is possible its the oil pan you are using
The gasket has to match the pan.
LTZ, I use and recommend RTV in the corners, as stated, and along the seal trenches in the bottom of the timing cover and rear main cap. Avoid RTV between the gasket and the pan lip or you'll risk squeeze-out of the gasket. The Right Stuff by Permatex may be a better choice for you under the circumstances. Otherwise, it sounds like your method was sound. Talk to your guys at work and see what they think.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 29, 2015, 12:47:06 am
what did you torque the bolts to?
i couldnt for the life of me find the torque specs for the one piece gasket when i put mine in recently. i looked on felpros sight and googled the heck out of it with no luck. my service manuals said whatever number for the small bolts and whatever number for the larger bolts. i forget the numbers. one of my books said that even though the bolts could all handle the same torque numbers you cant make them all that tight because it would crush the cork gaskets(old manuals lol)
so long story short i tightened all the bolts to the higher number and i went around like 5 times in a criss cross patern. i did the RTV in the corners and i had the short gasket. not a drop has leaked
it is possible its the oil pan you are using
7 ft lbs for the 14 smaller side rail bolts and 13 ft lbs for the 4 larger corner bolts if I remember correctly. It's possible I have the tall gasket, I don't know for sure tho. I'll go inside in a few and see if I can find the receipt. I tightened mine in a spiral pattern, starting from the middle and working my way out just like torque down a cylinder head.
I doubt it's the pan, GM product, brand new and straight as an arrow, I checked before I put it on.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 29, 2015, 12:53:13 am
it is possible its the oil pan you are using
The gasket has to match the pan.
LTZ, I use and recommend RTV in the corners, as stated, and along the seal trenches in the bottom of the timing cover and rear main cap. Avoid RTV between the gasket and the pan lip or you'll risk squeeze-out of the gasket. The Right Stuff by Permatex may be a better choice for you under the circumstances. Otherwise, it sounds like your method was sound. Talk to your guys at work and see what they think.
I did most of that except the "in the seal trenches" part. I also used Permatex Right Stuff. I think it's probable the gasket doesn't match the pan. Anyway, first thing I get to work tomorrow, it's goin in the shop. Long as it's done by 5 o'clock I don't care lol. I'll let the tech handle it and just use this as a learning experience.
Overall I think I did pretty good for a redneck white boy haha.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 29, 2015, 01:04:47 am
Post by: enaberif on May 29, 2015, 06:46:16 am
I didn't use any rtv or even torque by bolts and I have no leaks at all. But I also made sure my pan flange was dead straight and the surface of the block was wiped down with acetone a few times.
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm25/ronger66/engine%20rebuild/Immaginerebuild056.jpg
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 29, 2015, 08:11:53 am
Post by: enaberif on May 29, 2015, 08:44:17 am
Got it. I didn't do that but I can tell you for sure that the dip in the gasket was thicker than 1/4 inch.
Yeah so make sure you confirm the details to make sure you have the right seal. I didn't buy a complete kit when I redid my pan as I bought everything individually.
Also don't forget you had to tweak your timing cover so I'd ensure the flange area for the oil pan seal is a good fit and it isn't too loose either.
Post by: LTZ C20 on May 29, 2015, 09:53:45 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 01, 2015, 08:12:21 pm
WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE GREAT SCOTT IS THIS CRAP!?!?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/01/db5ab8e84c521a6a287a4ee1a0edf948.jpg)
Post by: bd on June 01, 2015, 10:10:50 pm
A little more information, if you please...
Describe the metallic looking trash huddling around that center head bolt. Have you determined exactly where it came from? More questions: ( 1 ) What are the valve retainers-to-rocker arms clearances? ( 2 ) How high did you rev the engine (be honest)? ( 3 ) Are any of the pushrods bent? ( 4 ) Are the valve springs correctly matched to the cam? ( 5 ) Did you check for coil and retainer bind during setup? ( 6 ) The valve train geometry appears "off" (as in way off center) - did you check rocker sweep across the valve tip with a dial indicator and dye to optimize pushrod length? ( 7 ) What was the oil pressure running? ( 8 ) Was the top end adequately pre-lubed during assembly? ( 9 ) Did you align the pushrods and check the torque on the rocker studs during assembly?
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 02, 2015, 01:44:54 am
OUCH!!! That's a bummer LTZ! :(
A little more information, if you please...
Describe the metallic looking trash huddling around that center head bolt. Have you determined exactly where it came from? More questions: ( 1 ) What are the valve retainers-to-rocker arms clearances? ( 2 ) How high did you rev the engine (be honest)? ( 3 ) Are any of the pushrods bent? ( 4 ) Are the valve springs correctly matched to the cam? ( 5 ) Did you check for coil and retainer bind during setup? ( 6 ) The valve train geometry appears "off" (as in way off center) - did you check rocker sweep across the valve tip with a dial indicator and dye to optimize pushrod length? ( 7 ) What was the oil pressure running? ( 8 ) Was the top end adequately pre-lubed during assembly? ( 9 ) Did you align the pushrods and check the torque on the rocker studs during assembly?
Metallic looking trash is some Permatex Right Stuff that came apart when I pulled the cover off.
1- um not sure?? Would this be lash?
2- honestly, highest it's been is 3500, one time. Under normal driving, 3000.
3- nope :) not even that 1.
4- yes, verified by summit racing technical assistance
5- do you mean coil spring and valve retainer bind? If so then no, heads came pre-assembled
6- umm kinda sorta. I found proper pushrod length by following the steps outlined in the summit quick flicks instructional video on finding pushrod length.
7- about 60 psi
8- yes
9- not sure what align the rods means, align them with what? Check torque on studs, no. Was I supposed too?
This is only my second engine so I'm sure that I may have missed a few things. I know I learned way more the second time then I did the first time.
I think that, in my limited knowledge, the rocker arm nut just came loose. I researched this and it appears, based on what I saw, the crimp on the nut lost its hold and the nut rattled loose. It did not ruin or damage anything, just ran like it w as missing a cylinder. I got it fixed tho, went to auto parts store, picked up 6 extra nuts ( all they had in stock, .99 cents a piece), also got new gaskets and some more Right Stuff. No broken or busted parts found, all checked out good. Reassembled, rotated engine over and set proper lash, put it all together. So far no leaks (Knock on wood) and running great, like it never happened.
Post by: rich weyand on June 02, 2015, 02:02:24 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 02, 2015, 08:08:48 am
Did you check the pushrod for straight? Easiest is to roll it across a flat surface....Yep, it's good.
Post by: enaberif on June 02, 2015, 08:48:26 am
Post by: enaberif on June 02, 2015, 08:49:39 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 02, 2015, 09:24:24 am
Holy geezus I'd be replacing all those nuts just for peace of mind! That is nuts.I was goin to but didn't have the time or enough nuts. Parts store only had 6 so I just did the 1 that came loose. I did not see any evidence of others coming loose. Plus I gotta be able to drive this every day.
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 02, 2015, 09:25:21 am
Aligning push rod to rocker simply means ensuring the ball on the pushrod sits in the cup on the rocker.Oh ok. Yea did that.
Post by: bd on June 02, 2015, 09:30:27 am
Just to settle two questions that I raised (not necessarily something you need to do): (1) A little graphite spray or Prussian blue lightly smeared on the valve tip will wipe away as the rocker moves through its full range of motion. The resulting witness mark should be centered across the valve tip. This verifies whether the pushrod length is correct. (2) pushrod guide plates typically can be adjusted laterally for best alignment of the rockers to the valve tips while preventing the pushrods from dragging the head casting. It's a limited adjustment that already may be near perfect from the manufacturer. Double checking rocker stud torque is good practice and often recommended by head manufacturers.
I agree with replacing all the nuts. Why run the risk of taking it apart again?
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 02, 2015, 09:41:35 am
Post by: enaberif on June 02, 2015, 10:30:43 am
Ok. I understand. I will have to find some more nuts first. I would like to be able to go a week or so without having to touch that engine. I guess we will wait and see.
Well I want you to think of it this way. This time you were lucky and didn't damage anything. The next time you could take out a rocker, pushrod and maybe a lifter. Willing to take that chance?
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 02, 2015, 11:20:59 am
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 17, 2015, 11:30:44 am
Post by: fitz on June 21, 2015, 05:35:49 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on June 21, 2015, 05:38:32 pm
Post by: Boxchevrolet on April 13, 2016, 02:11:34 pm
Post by: LTZ C20 on April 13, 2016, 03:50:45 pm