new hampshire senate/house of reps

[Lt.Del]

heated was a wrong word....i should've said, such a passionate topic. Sorry.  It is quite opinionated, which is good to see all these sides and the points made.

[project85]

I think if you had a contract stating you should get ABC XYZ then they should honor that. If they're not it's time to file a class action lawsuit. I think most of us here on this site represent middle class working people otherwise this would be a Lamborghini website. Maybe now is a good time to reconsider serving as a fireman, there are many other jobs/careers that will help people and maybe even on a much higher level for you but to be honest you shouldn't choose your profession based on a promise of a retirement pension.

we are told when we start what all the rules are to retire. now the state wants to change the rules midstream. honestly i think that when you take a job the retirement is a huge thing to consider. to not factor it in to your assessment is a dis-service to yourself. and i honestly could not think of a better and more fufilling job then as a firefighter/emt. everyday you have an oppurtunity to help someone or to possibly save a life. i love it and would not leave even if they removed the retirment all-together, just no one wants to lose a right, whether its a retirement or a CBA right.

this is a thread to a wisconsin paper.   http://www.guilfordian.com/world-nation/protesters-fight-anti-union-law-in-wisconsin-1.2123272  the section that says "In 30 minutes, 18 state senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin," said Mark Miller, the leader of the Senate Democrats, to The New York Times. "Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten."

this is what is happening to us in NH and i personally do not think john q public knows what the elected officials are doing.

[Lt.Del]

I have always believed in free market. That is what made this country great.
That said, I feel local governments will be making things worse in the long run.  
I will not recommend anyone enter public servitude in the future.  If gov'ts continue to reduce benefits and pay, the public at large will see the effects quickly.  You think the wait in line now is long to get vehicle registrations and such, or getting a business license or building permit, or paying local taxes. 
With these cuts, there will be no reason for workers to remain working in the same area for long periods of time. More money will be needed to train employees, because of the turnover rates.  Litigation lawsuits will increase dramatically because there will always be a high number of "rookies" on fire and police departments, and the lack of seasoned veterans to guide them will not be there.  These are areas that cannot afford less experience (ems, fire, police) where life decisions are made instantly everyday.
I am afraid the politicians will only look at current, tangible expenditures...staff salaries and pension payouts and not see other factors mentioned above.  In the long run everyone suffers.  Salaries will then start to increase because of this and this cycle will start all over again.  All this can be prevented by understanding that lower salaries and much reduced benefits are not the answer when it comes to saving money.  Free market will work again, and benefits to entice people to stay longer will be enacted, just like they were decades ago, which is why we have benefits.
Political memories are short.

[project85]

I have always believed in free market. That is what made this country great.
That said, I feel local governments will be making things worse in the long run.  
I will not recommend anyone enter public servitude in the future.  If gov'ts continue to reduce benefits and pay, the public at large will see the effects quickly.   There will be no reason to remain working in the same area for long periods of time. More money will be needed to train employees, because of the turnover rates.  Litigation lawsuits will increase dramatically because there will always be a high number of "rookies" on fire and police departments, and the lack of seasoned veterans to guide them will not be there.  These are areas that cannot afford less experience (ems, fire, police) where life decisions are made instantly everyday.
I am afraid the politicians will only look at current, tangible expenditures...staff salaries and pension payouts and not see other factors mentioned above.  In the long run everyone suffers.  Salaries will then start to increase because of this and this cycle will start all over again.  All this can be prevented by understanding that lower salaries and much reduced benefits are not the answer.  

everyone knows you get what you pay for. if you buy oem parts you pay alittle more but they fit better, you by cheap stuff your stuck doing fab work.

[PromiseKeeper]

We're going though it right now in Ohio. My family has several educators in it and I drive a school bus. So, I have a vested interest. I've worked in both union and non union shops. It's not so much about the union, but doing what's right on both sides. They didn't even give anyone a chance to talk about concessions, just ramrodded this through the system. Will likely end up on the ballot here this fall. Our Governor is now privatizing the prison system. Do you think you will be able to say with certainty that a minimum wage firefighter, law enforcement officer, or prison guard will be as willing to step into harm's way? I don't want to bet my family's safety on it!
 
The governor's in those states are finding a way to legally steal what has been earned and negotiated as fair and equitable for many years. In our case, an entire retirement plan might get flushed down the toilet. Most folks do not take into account that those employees have a set apart system that does not include social security. What they retire, the government retirement is all they will get. We have went in just a few short years from requiring our educators (at their own expense largely) to be "highly qualified" to being stripped of fair compensation. That translates into six years of mandatory education beyond high school. Going back to a 20,000 paycheck and no benefits for an investment like that, let alone the responsibility teacher, firefighters, and policemen have? Talking to my daughter, on the other side of her career, I hear and understand what she has to say when she says there would be no reason to stay in this state should this pass. In fact, I think there will be a giant sucking sound like a vacuum when many of our younger, gifted educators, firefighters, police, etc leave either the state or their profession. It saddens me to think of the potential we would drive out of our educational system. Who will shape our leaders then? Minimum wage educators? Why would someone even consider 6 years of college for that kind of return? Businessmen know that nothing in this world is free and you get what you pay for. Ask any professional or business person if they are willing to consistently give away their services. We all know the answer to this one. Even as a bus driver, I would not be willing to give up wages and benefits for the responsibility that I am asked to assume. Flipping burgers will pay the same. Someone else can be responsible to handle the issues, training, and seeing to it that hundreds of someone else's kids are delivered safely each day. As it stands, if you're in any of these fields for the money, you're in the wrong profession. Stripping away what we have now will only make the decision easy. This infuriates me to think that our government would simply try to pass along the burden of what they have created onto the backs of people who have sacrificed their lives to make a difference in this world. In no other professions (except perhaps ministry) will you find folks who work harder and have more important responsibilities than these. Today, I'm not so proud to call myself a Republican. Maybe a good job will open up in one of our new casinos.
Scott

[PromiseKeeper]

I read some interesting stats the other day. The article said there were currently 5 states that have said collective bargaining for educators is illegal. Those five states have the some of the lowest SAT scores in the country. The highest ranking among them was 39th. How do we compete in a global marketplace with scores like these?

[project85]

promiskeeper that was well said. and in NH we are forced to pay into the NHRS. we will not get social security unless we have a side job for 10 quarters. now they are changing something they force us to be apart of. the ramrodding is exactly whats happening here. all these really bad things for us have been amendments to bills that no one really hears. it has been done over 4 weeks. they even put removing the CBA stuff in afinancial bill so that the govener's veto power is removed. dirty trick. they even started off trying to reduce our retired guys pensions 20%. a guy on a fixed income that has already put his 20-30 years in, and they wanted him to take a 20% pay cut. and it is a republican majority in the house ans senate right now. they will not pass gambling in our state. they would rather ruin it this way.

[Lt.Del]

I read some interesting stats the other day. The article said there were currently 5 states that have said collective bargaining for educators is illegal. Those five states have the some of the lowest SAT scores in the country. The highest ranking among them was 39th. How do we compete in a global marketplace with scores like these?

you get what you pay for.  Are our children, who will make up our future, worth the risk?

[topp]

One thing missing from this....

There are MANY states that have NO CBA for their public employees.
In those states, the employees do BETTER than in Unionized states.

As for your pension, coupla things-1) it was a p0nzi scheme based on taxes paid in by the tax payer- It never existed. 2) now the public sector is getting what the private sector got and has had for 20 years. 3.) NOTHING is guaranteed, so whoever "guaranteed" anything to you lied, and you believed the lie.


Yes, it sucks.
Life is tough, get a helmet.

[Lt.Del]

they even put removing the CBA stuff in afinancial bill so that the govener's veto power is removed. dirty trick.

Ah, but think of it this way.  The governor probably likes that it was done this way, making it appear he had no choice.  Political Games.

[Lt.Del]

it was a p0nzi scheme based on taxes paid in by the tax payer- It never existed.

not quite right.  Depends on the state I assume, but, state and local workers pay their percentage of their salary into the respective retirement system.  It was set up this way so our weekly paychecks wouldn't be as much, but, our future was taken care of. This is real money.  What I pay into it benefits those who have already retired. There will be more state, county workers in the future. What they pay into it will pay my way when I'm retired.  That is, until these politicians saw how lucrative it is and they dip their hands in it and it disappears on other projects that benefit everyone else. This system was the healthiest of all state funds and the politicians salivated over it.

now the public sector is getting what the private sector got and has had for 20 years

The private sector salaries, as a whole, are usually higher.  The enticement of gov't jobs is the benefits, not the salary.  And, suppose a private sector worker paid 8% of their salary into a 401k and then the CEO of their company all of the sudden says, "No, I think I am going to take those investments away--all of it--even though it isn't mine to take"   What would yo then say?

[project85]

they even put removing the CBA stuff in afinancial bill so that the govener's veto power is removed. dirty trick.

Ah, but think of it this way.  The governor probably likes that it was done this way, making it appear he had no choice.  Political Games.

yes and no he is in his last term so he has nothing really to lose but he will save face if the blood in't on his hands.

we pay 9.3% of our salary into our retirement (firefighter & police) the state pays 35% (they have for 37 years, there choice way back when, we used to have a municipal retirment system) the employer pays 14% now (they paid 4% in the good economic times, we tried to make the state make the towns pay the same as us but they never did, part of the reason it is surposedly going broke)

[topp]

not quite right.  Depends on the state I assume, but, state and local workers pay their percentage of their salary into the respective retirement system.  It was set up this way so our weekly paychecks wouldn't be as much, but, our future was taken care of.

You paid a small percentage, with the rest coming from tax revenue.  As long as the tax base is there, you are fine....If not, no money goes in.  This is the same issue with Social security.  For each person receiving, there needs to be 10 contributing....  Classic Ponzi schemes... 

The private sector salaries, as a whole, are usually higher.  The enticement of gov't jobs is the benefits, not the salary.  And, suppose a private sector worker paid 8% of their salary into a 401k and then the CEO of their company all of the sudden says, "No, I think I am going to take those investments away--all of it--even though it isn't mine to take"   What would yo then say?

 
1- Not true at all. I have a friend in WI who is in the same boat.  She is in the teachers union. she is a janitor (maintenance engineer)  After 12 years, she gets 40 PAID days off a year.  Her pension (after 20) is 1.2 million dollars.  She makes almost 75K a year.  Any other janitor in the private sector is lucky to make 35K a year.  Another friend works in a VA hospital in DE.  She makes almost twice the money that she would make in a "private" hospital.....

[Lt.Del]

She is in the teachers union.

I said i hate unions. This is atypical where a janitor has 1.2 million for retirement. Not my case.  What i stated is my case.

[1980c10]

If people get together and vote to form a union, I believe that is their constitutional right. I don't have to agree with it.
I don't agree with flag burning either. However, I would proudly stand in the way of any govt official trying to stop the protestor from doing so.
Because these are govt workers it creates a gray area. These are special essential functions to a society. (what do you do when a police dept goes on strike and so on.) I don't know what the right answer is and that is why we elect lawmakers to figure this stuff out.
I believe in due process and would prefer they try that method instead of cramming it through or attaching it to a state budget. Perhaps they could use the constitution as a guide instead of looking for a loophole.