New/Rebuild Options

[spanky1205]

I have a tired 1987 350 tbi engine backed up by a 700r4 trans and np205 transfer case.  I am thinking 3.73 gears but I have not had a chance to check.   The truck currently has 33" tires and no lift.  I am torn between lifting the truck 4" and keeping the 33's or keeping the truck stock and putting the standard tires back on.  I am leaning hard toward the lift.    Until I started reading the forums I was content with replacing my current engine with a new long block from Summit ( see the link below).

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12568758/overview/

My question is could I get more engine for a similar budget if I did the work myself?  My goal is to have a nice truck I can drive to and from.  I have been known to pull trailers but it is not an everyday occurrence.  $2000 seems like a lot to pay for the factory rated 210 hp and 300 ft-lb torque.  This would be my first rebuild and the thought of matching all of the parts scares me more than actually bolting everything together.  My thoughts are if I take plenty of time to pick out the correct parts the rest of the build should go pretty well.  My final thought is I originally bought the truck with the idea of fixing or rebuilding what I needed to myself, which would give me the chance to learn.  What are your thoughts?

[rich weyand]

The camshaft determines a lot of what the engine performance envelope does.  Changing heads and all gives you more options on camming, but there are lots of cam choices that can sweeten up the GM stock block and stock heads quite a bit, and it's $100-$200 and minor work to swap the cam out on a new engine before you put it in.   Voids the warranty, but what the heck.  Download Camquest from here http://www.compcams.com/downloads/register.asp to see what kind of numbers you can get.  Putting a cam in a new engine, you don't even need to change lifters and springs.  The GM stock engines have not been run in, so the lifters haven't bedded into the cam yet.  All you need is the cam itself.

For lift, I did Tuff Country EZ-Ride 2" front and 3" rear and like that a lot.  I think it sits pretty good.  Those are 31" tires.  Change the shackle bushings while you have everything else off.  They'll be pretty tired by now.



33" tires over the stock 29" tires is a reduction in gear ratio, so a stock 3.73:1 goes to 3.28:1.  Dropping those tires down a bit will help that.  Right now you have basically the equivalent of a mileage ratio on there.  I have 3.43:1 with 31" tires, which gives an equivalent 3.21:1.  I compensated with a cam that gives a lot of torque in the bottom end.  Your cam choices are a bit different with TBI.  For carb motors with stock heads I think the Comp Cams 12-235-2 is probably one of the better choices out there.  I'm not sure whether that would be suitable for a TBI setup, but you can call Comp Cams and ask them.

The 700R4 and NP205 is a nice setup.  No changes needed there.  Just make sure you adjust the TV cable properly before you do any test drives.  It's pretty easy to dynamite a 700R4 in just a few miles if the TV cable isn't properly adjusted.

[pholliday1]

Another option? you can take your block put vortec heads on it, Eldlebrock  makes a performance intake to match vortec heads to a tbi motor, I like the 4'' lift idea, 4:10 ratio would give you a much better performance "feel" when driving especially with the OD trans. Bigger tires really rob the engine of the "mighty" feeling however different gears (if cheaply available) really even up the odds. I run 40 inch rubber with 5:38 gears and a stock 350 tbi with 100,000 miles on it and the truck is surprisingly nimble.

[nlauffer]

If you are willing to spend $2000 on an engine swap, maybe change direction with the same amount of money.  Look at a set of heads (like vortecs for $700), cam kit ($350), intake ($200).  This is just a short list as you might need pistons and rings and machine work. 

You can get a warranty with the new motor.  That's a great plus.  You can get more power and possibly suspension and/or gears if you build yourself. 

If you go with the new motor with upgraded cam and void the warranty, I would just rebuild yours instead.  No warranty is no warranty whether its new motor or yours rebuilt.

[nlauffer]

I can tell you I will be less than $1200 with my rebuild and I started with a block, crank and rods.  I did however find some really good deals and it is taking me quite some time.  I owe a lot to this site and also Rich.

[spanky1205]

If you are willing to spend $2000 on an engine swap, maybe change direction with the same amount of money.  Look at a set of heads (like vortecs for $700), cam kit ($350), intake ($200).  This is just a short list as you might need pistons and rings and machine work. 

You can get a warranty with the new motor.  That's a great plus.  You can get more power and possibly suspension and/or gears if you build yourself. 

If you go with the new motor with upgraded cam and void the warranty, I would just rebuild yours instead.  No warranty is no warranty whether its new motor or yours rebuilt.

I was actually thinking about doing something similar to this.  My biggest hold up is putting the correct parts together.  I realize the heads will bolt to my block and the intake must match my heads and tbi.  Since I would have to get a new chip burned, so the computer would work with the changes, I would probably buy a carb intake and tbi adapter and then do an egr delete.  As I understand vortec heads require a roller cam, lifters, push-rods, and rocker arms is that correct?  As I understand my '87 block needs to be tapped to accept the tin spider and retainers that are also needed to complete the roller cam setup.  Am I off on any of the facts?  If there is something I do or do not need I would appreciate the heads up.  Its those types of things that will either make or break a budget. 

As far as the lift goes it will happen down the road.  My priority is to fix the motor and transfer case leak.  Then I want to move onto the lift.  My plans for that are to buy everything new, bushings, shocks, springs, hardware etc.  Everything I currently have is stock and pretty used up.  Plus the truck sets lower on the passenger side than it does on the drivers side.  I figure all the new stuff will fix that problem and level everything back out, but that is a different thread.

[nlauffer]

The heads I bought are a set of EQ 180cc intake runner and 64cc combustion chamber.  They are cast iron and are similar to the vortec heads, but use the older style intake.  You can use center bolt or perimeter bolt valve covers.  I found these at a steal.  New they run about 800-900, I think.  You would have the savings of not having to use a vortec intake.  If you are gonna build yourself, I would search hard for a good deal on heads as these can be one of the more expensive parts.  I happened upon mine at the machine shop I went to for machine work.  Ask around about engine machine shops in your area.  I had one close to me, that looked OK, but I new better.  I feel bad for the people that actually went to him for work.  If you can find a good set of aftermarket or even the Summit vortec copies, it might help you in the long run if you plan on running cam lift over .475.  The GM vortec heads say they will only support .475 lift and I have been told this is due to valve stem seal clearance.  If you stay under .475, then no problem.  Watch out for good deals on vortec heads that have been on a motor already, as some have a reputation for cracking between the middle exhaust ports.  On all my vehicles with vortec motors, I have never experienced this, but I have seen the crack on multiple heads before.

Roller cam, IMO and only my opinion, is not worth it on you motor if you have to do that kind of work to it.  I would be nervous drilling and tapping into the block, even if the bosses are there.  But, if you are confident you can find a machine shop to do it right, you would probably be better off.  Less wear on valvetrain, so I have been told.  Also, the vortec heads do not require roller cam parts.

I am not familiar with burning chips for the TBI.  I guess if you don't go too crazy, you might not have to.

I would recommend getting a basic run down on your motor's condition.  I'm thinking like compression, spark plug condition.  Stuff like that to get an idea of what your block might need as far as machine work.  Or you could just figure on a complete rebuild.

[spanky1205]

I have been doing a lot of reading about different heads and I am sure I will do a whole lot more before spending any money.  I am re-considering the vortec idea.  There is lots out there to learn about heads.  For instance it seems like I would be money ahead to just rebuild, port, and polish the 193 heads I currently have.  They were intended for fuel economy and low end torque, which is everything I need in a truck that is intended for work around the house and to be driven daily.

I do not necessarily want a roller cam, I just thought it was required to run vortec heads.  I am sure I can drill and tap the block if I have to, but I do not want to if I do not have to.  I am not sure the money / work really is worth the gain, which is why I started re-considering heads in the first place.  Just another thing to look into before I start spending money.

I am with you on burning chips, I know virtually nothing.  Again I was under the influence I would have to if I started changing heads and cams.  If I do not have to then that is money saved for another part of my project.  Its an older truck, there are many projects.

I planned on getting to know my engine better before spending any money.  Right now I am trying to make a plan of attack sort of speak.  As I said before bolting parts together does not scare me, if I take something apart I can get it back together with enough time and research.  My problem is making a list of parts I will need that work well together.  I plan to change only what I have to in the bottom of my engine, which should leave the bulk of my budget for changes up top.

[nlauffer]

I have a post in the Performance section titled Lunati Cam and Pro Comp Head Discussion.  I think that is what it is called.  It shows how far I have come on my first thoughts and what I ended up with.  It sounds like you are closer than I was to figuring out what I wanted.

there is definitely some good info on here from people about heads and cams.  I don't know much about stock heads and the different casting numbers being good or bad.  A good rebuild and port job might be the better way to go.  I'd be curious to see the cost difference compared to say the Summit Vortec heads.  I think they are $335 assembled / each.  That's a heck of a price in my book.

[spanky1205]

As I mentioned I have been looking into head options.  I was surfing through some YouTube videos and came across the video below while trying to learn about what head porting is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMkCV1s5BQ8

I watched the series of videos and contacted the guy about my heads since I have the same ones.  Below is his email back to me.  My questions is does his information sound correct?  5 mpg is a lot of gain.  What about the prices?  What are your overall thoughts?  I am not trying to bash anyone, I am just looking for honest thoughts since I have no real experience to draw conclusions from myself.

...I can do the heads top to bottom (except for the new stainless valves or new stock valves which are 77.00 IF you want new Stainless Steel Valves, and 45.00 for new STOCK Valves) $850.00 and IF you let me do the intake manifold with it I would be willing to give you a deal of toughing in the valves on the deal. SOO $1000.00 will get you Stage IV porting which includes EVERYTHING parts and all and full intake manifold porting (2.5 inches up the runners and plenum blending)
 
Here are the other options:
I have four different stages to choose from: $400.00, 550.00, 700.00 and 850.00 in stages I, II, III, and IV.  all come with Valve Job included (part of the portwork) along with Bronze new Valve Guides, which are a 100.00 value IF there loose or bad. IF you do any of the porting above, I include manifold porting thrown in for $100.00!!! as a discount.
It works out like this sir, Stage one gets you a quick bowl job blend (light) with a little power pick-up to about 15 Horse Power, II gets you more aggressive BOWL work and intake entrance porting for about 25 HP, III gets you an increase in MPG to about 3 miles per gallon, and about 50 HP, the killer is stage IV, which gets you hands down 75 to 85 Horsepower and around 5 Miles per gallon more. Now if you look at the 5 miles per gallon it only takes about 6 months of driving and all this work has paid for itself at gas being $4.00 a gallon, then everything after that is profit!
I really like to describe this increase as TORQUE, not HP, and what were talking about here is well over 75 Ft. LBs. on the stage IV Deal. Turnaround time is average 30 Days; however, since you live close and could come here to drop them off and pick them up if your vehicle is down I could get done for you Way Quicker if need be. I also would insist (if you don't mind) that I get you and the heads on my YouTube channel with photos of you and the heads when you come to get them, and I will leave the heads  unassembled so you can see the work up close and personal then I can assemble them while you wait (about 20 minutes). I hope you like the prices and like I said, I have 4 stages for you to choose from, and nobody nowhere can come close to my labor to dollar spent, NOWHERE!!!...

Here is a link to his website http://headbytes.com/index.html

[frotosride]

Not sure how many miles you got on that "tired" 350 TBI but I bet you would enjoy a lift. I got 165k on my '87 4" rough country springs all the way around and 35x12.5's. With the original posi-track from '87 I can still spin both tires. Only current engine mods other than cleaning the TBI is batter intake, long tube headers and meow free exhaust. I did the lift by myself in my slanted driveway with two jacks and 3 sets of jackstands. Recommend going to a tractor supply type of store and getting 12ton+ jackstands mainly because of their ability to be adjusted high and still be stable.
POWER: Spend it on the bottom end for now. You said you are on a budget so a little cash into the block and rotating assembly at a machine shop will set you up for mods later on that will allow you a worry free upgrade process. If you want to keep driving the truck, you can pick up a block for cheap or a takeout engine cheap and slowly build it the way you want it then just swap the two when you are all done. There are plenty of builds here on small blocks to give you an idea of what will work in your truck. use the search and you will be overloaded with knowledge. Unless you find a takeout engine from '96 and up don't keep the heads if you can afford to. '87-95's are known as swirl port heads and they are very restrictive. '96-99 and some 2000 models are true vortech heads that will out perform the boat anchors you currently have. The good thing is that you can take it back to basics (carbureted) until you feel comfortable with a fuel injection upgrade.

[Irish_Alley]

just to throw the engine ideal out there for
 3k you can get 400 hp 400 Torque
https://www.yearone.com/Product/1967-87-chevy-gmc-truck/ct350pc1 (cast Ported Dart Iron Vortec)
3.5k you can get 400 hp 400 Torque
https://www.yearone.com/Product/1967-87-chevy-gmc-truck/at350pc1 (aluminum Edelbrock E-Tec)
but you will be at 9.7:1
24 mth/24,000 mi  Warranty

[spanky1205]

I planned on making sure the bottom end is sound before doing anything up top. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.  Right now I am just trying to figure out a plan of attack.

Froto, I had been looking at the vortec heads. The only reason I questioned keeping the 193's I currently have is because everything I read says they are designed to be fuel efficient and produce low end torque. Many people say the vortecs do not do any better unless you are running above 4500 rpm. It's rare that I ever run that many rpm's. In addition I do not have to buy a new intake or do anything else to make 193's run on my truck. I have to buy a new intake and take care of the egr plumbing to run vortec heads in addition to buying the heads themselves. What are your thoughts?  You are running a truck equipped about like I want, do you run above 4500 rpm during daily driving?

Thanks again everyone for you thoughts. It has helped.

[nlauffer]

I would think the vortec heads would start running out of steam after 4500 as they are a stock head.

[nlauffer]

You might also think of it like this on the 193 port job. Those heads were superceded by the vortec head as a better design of the same concept. You could be into a set of vortec heads with intake cheaper than that port job.

I read through that guys entire website and watched most of his video. I like what he has to say about his work, but I have a really hard time believing his numbers. He could be right on the money though with his numbers. He seems to just be guessing when he does his machining lik he doesn't know if it will work or not, but it looks to him like it might.   Don't take my word only though as I am absolutely not a machinist.

I think you'd be on a good path to buy the Summit vortec heads and build around those. Horse Power did a build with those heads but a newer roller block. I think it was the roller block. I have it saved on my DVR. I'll watch it again and try to give you the info they have.