Improper Starter Engagement

[LTZ C20]

Ok. I see. I think our warranty admin will have no problem with it. As of right now, the new one, is working properly. Tonight, I will be re checking the engagement of the new unit, along with voltage drop and ring gear to pinion gear clearance.

The only other thought I had is, the physical dimensions of the smaller reduction starter, specifically the cone area where the gear slides out, is physically shorter than the more standard and much heavier regular starter. So it's just simply not long enough for proper engagement. Again only an idea, I have to preform the tests first.

[LTZ C20]

Well I've been using the 2nd gear reduction starter for about a week n half or so, it's beginning to grind again at times. I figured out that it's more when it's heat soaked for an hour or less or for a shirt period like 10-15 or less, like stopping at a gas station. When cold, it works but right ad I release the key to the run position it makes a little noise as the starter disengages.

I've done some more digging around, and I never knew about this but apperently some vehicles have a starter brace, a bracket that supports it in some way. I don't know whether it's based on engine or starter, when your supposed to use this brace.

Also, I plan to remove the direct drive starter from my 97 silverado, put it on my truck and then start it alot and use it for a week or so and see if it solves the issue.

[LTZ C20]

Ok, I may have found an important piece of information. I carefully pulled the starter gear out (as info to in gage the flywheel) with it fully extended, I can fit a 1/8 inch allen wrench between the ring gear and starter gear. What I mean buy that is, with 1 tooth of the starter gear inside 1 valley of the ring gear, I can fit a 1/8 allen wrench. Like this.

 

Does this extended far enough into the width of the ring gear?





This is the end of a 1/8 inch thick small pick tool between the teeth of each gear?



Could this be my whole issue I didn't see the first time? Too much clearance? I need a shim to push the teeth of each gear closer together?

[LTZ C20]

Rechecking using this picture from the link on page 1.



Using steps 2 and 4. I can fit a 1/4 inch allen wrench between the ring gear and pinion shaft. Twice the distance of the 1/8 gauge tool they reference in the picture.

I think that's the problem right there right? Should I install a 1/8 shim and recheck clearance?

[enaberif]

From what I can tell from the pictures those teeth are barely touching when they spin. Something definitely isn't right and needs to be shimmed.

Are you able to get a clear side side of the flywheel and starter? In one shot it looks like it might be ok.. in another it looks way out.

[LTZ C20]

Unfortunately I can't get this flat screen of a smart phone in there to take a clear picture, it will only appear like grizzly bear in a snow storm. It's definitely way off tho.

Using simple math, I had 1/4 inch of clearance, the measuring tool is 1/8 inch thick, so I installed 1/8 inch worth of shims. Now 1/4 inch minus 1/8 inch should equal 1/8 inch. Now I rechecked and it's already vastly improved, however there is still about 1/16 inch of space between the measuring tool and the ring gear when the measuring tool is touching the pinion shaft. Is that 1/16 extra ok or do I need more shim?

[LTZ C20]

Best as I can for pics, this is with the shims I just mentioned above.

[bd]

That ring gear looks pretty chewed up at this point.  I recommend replacement before it tears up the pinion gear on the new starter.

From  w a y  back on the first page...

...Disconnect the positive battery cable from the starter and tape it up so it can't arc to ground - leave just enough of the terminal end bare to clip a test lead to it.  At this point, nothing should be connected to the 3/8" solenoid stud.  Remove the converter dust shield.  Clip a test lead to the solenoid "crank" terminal.  Touch the opposite end of the test lead to the bare spot on the disconnected and taped positive cable.  This energizes the solenoid and draws the pinion into the ring gear w/o cranking the motor.  The solenoid should energize and release with an authoritative snap & thud.  Now, you can accurately evaluate pinion engagement with the ring gear w/o losing a finger or snagging your hair in a rotating flexplate.  Check the pinion penetration and lash....

Radial penetration (mesh) of the pinion into the ring gear should leave 0.020" (preferred) - 0.030" (maximum) clearance, measured as indicated in the attached image.  You can use a paper clip as a gauge.

If you need to use half-shims, consider fabricating a support for the motor end of the starter, using the image posted by Irish_Alley for ideas.  A simple but effective support can be fabricated from 3/4" angle iron.  There should be a 1/4" bolt hole in the side of the block that can be used to anchor the support.

[LTZ C20]

Well guys, I seriously appreciate all of your help. I shimmed it, rechecked clearance, seemed to be good, tried starting it about 10 times, 4 or 5 of those were just holding the key down and letting it crank away for 10-15 seconds continuously to make sure it didn't skip off or grind. Was working like a champ. Then I found an extra shim, realized I missed counted and it didn't have as many as needed, so loosened it back up, put the extra shim in, restarted about 3 times, got a little grinding. Ok, fair enough, that was 1 shim too many, rechecked with gauge, sure enough, the gap is little to big. Removed extra shim, retightened bolts, restarted about 3 times, on the 3rd try, I got a grind and then a whiz, that's right, starter is spinning freely and not spinning the engine over. Tried to restart about 5 times, everytime it's a 1/2 second grind then whiz. Truck won't even turn over.

So I've either stripped the teeth off the pinion gear or off the ring gear. I'm leaning toward ring gear tho, because I rotated the engine over about 90 degrees with a wrench and socket on the front crank bolt, then tried to restart, got another 1/2 second grind and the engine turned over enough to start. So I think there is now a bad spot on the flywheel.

I think now I'm gonna have to examine the starter for damage, replace if needed, replace the flywheel and start all over again at the beginning, from scratch, fresh flywheel, fresh or good starter, check all clearances, make a bracket if needed and use a better assortment of shims.

Needless to say, I'm very frustrated, pretty pissed off at the moment and wish I would have just not messed with the extra shim when I found it. Oh well, how do we learn if we don't screw it up the first 100 times right? Thanks again for all your help guys. I've very grateful.

[enaberif]

Taking another look on my desktop and not laptop that flywheel is absolutely shot. Look at the pic I've attached and you can see the worn out part and the beveling.

[LTZ C20]

Yea your telling me. I knew that was gonna happen. Really just mad at myself for not figuring out the shimming thing sooner and getting it fixed properly. Now I'm paying the price with a new flywheel. The shims I got weren't that great either, they were all the same size, I had 5 stacked up when it was working good but failed shortly after. Now I'm carrying my big 1/2 inch long handle ratchet and crank socket in the truck, if it don't start, roll the engine over a bit and try again lol. Gonna order a new flywheel this morning, I'm hoping we have one in stock. Fix it this weekend if I can.

I think with that article I posted earlier and on page 1, your guys help and that small black and white image BD posted I should be able to get it right now.

I also just learned your not supposed to use more than 2 or 3 shims max, so being as the parts store gave me the really small ones, I had too many stacked up.

[bd]

Measure carefully and don't get shim crazy.  In 30 years of repairing these pigs I rarely had to shim a starter.  Are you cramming all of those shims under only one bolt?

[LTZ C20]

Measure carefully and don't get shim crazy.  In 30 years of repairing these pigs I rarely had to shim a starter.  Are you cramming all of those shims under only one bolt?

That's what I'm hearing, I shouldn't need to shim alot, yes they were all under 1 bolt. I'll just start all over on Monday when the new flexplate arrives. That way I've had time to relax, regroup and be a little more professional about the whole thing. Haha

[LTZ C20]

Update: Monday nite I got the trans seperated, 5 of the 6 flexplate bolts out. The last 1, for what ever reason was tighten to the German specification of gootentite. Last nite I dropped the crossmember, move the trans back a bit more, got the stuck bolt out, new flexplate on with new ARP 12 point flexplate bolts.

Tonight will be the remating of the trans and engine and put the crossmember back. Anything, I don't get done tonight will be done tomorrow. And either tonight or tomorrow will be when I start over from scratch and evaluate my starter to flexplate alignment and mesh.

[LTZ C20]

Update: Tonight, I got the trans reattached and everything all back together. I also was able to check the ring to pinion gear mesh and alignment.

I started from scratch, bolted starter up, checked, added a little shim, rechecked, added little more shim, rechecked and got a good result. Now, the starter was engaging about 2/3 or 3/4 of the width of the flexplate. Used a paper clip, I have light drag between the 2 gears, just like gapping a spark plug.

So then I tried to start it and it didn't start, it sounded different then grinding. So with an extra person, I watched the starter while they tried to start it. You guys will never believe this! The starter extends the pinion gear, it makes solid contact with the ring gear, then it cranks the engine over about 1/4 of a revolution and the pinion gear stops spinning, as soon as the gear stops turning, the pinion shaft continues to turn inside it on its own just making the whiz noise that starters make when you run them on work bench when they weren't attached to anything.

It only does this when on the engine, something about having to spin a V8 under compression makes the shaft break free of the gear and spin on its own, leaving the gear just sitting there until it disengages and the gear drops back into the starter body. I tested it on the work bench and it operates properly. I've never seen or heard of a starter doing that before.

Now this current starter, #2, I paid for out right because I knew it was my fault the teeth got chewed up on starter #1. I think it's save to say tho, there will be no problem being able to warranty #2 and getting the replacement, #3. Starter #2 worked right a total of about 10 times. It made the whiz noise against the beat up flexplate, I assumed the flexplate was just done, (which it was anyway), so it wasn't until I had the new flexplate on that I discovered the starter itself had also gone kahput!

So now just waiting on another starter, get that and it should be good to go.