Squeaky Drum Brakes & A Terrible Mechanic.

[Spool]

Passenger Side:

[Spool]

Spool, I just wanted to say I feel your pain on this and had a similar experience after letting someone else work on my truck. I normally try and do everything myself, but had taken it in to have both differentials rebuilt and re-geared with higher ratios. Here's the thread I started a while back http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=37836.0

When the shop doing the gears had it all apart, the guy called me and said the rear shoes were in bad shape and needed replacing and he would do it without charging for labor. I figured I would have them do it since they were already in there and I wouldn't have to do it later. He said they replaced the shoes and resurfaced the drums.

When I got the truck back, I was initially really happy with it since the brake pedal travel was way less than it was before and my parking brake would bite right away.

Unfortunately, not long after I noticed while in slow moving traffic on the highway the rear right side seemed to be sticking and was making a squeaking sound and grabbing on that side once every revolution of the wheel. It was also getting very hot. I tried using the adjusters, but that didn't help. I called the guy and said what's the deal with the brakes sticking. He said he couldn't advise me about brakes over the phone, but he could have it towed up there, or I could drive to some other shop closer to me that he trusted (his shop is fairly far away from my house).

I decided against having it towed back up there as I was frustrated they didn't do it right the first time. After driving it to work a few more times, it seemed to clear up but started having issues again. I noticed the right side shoes have a stripe on them like they are rubbing there and getting really hot and there is a significant amount of dust in that drum compared to the other side.

After taking everything out on the driver side yesterday, I found the machined pads in the backplate the shoes slide upon (lands) are badly worn. They feel uneven and one even has kind of a ridge ground into it. This is on the side that wasn't even sticking so I'm expecting the other side to be even worse today. If the lands are beat up too much, it can cause the shoes to get stuck and not be able to retract when you let off the pedal from what I understand.

The advice I got in that thread was to try brazing to fill iln the uneven surfaces, then sand them back to be flat again. It's either that or I'll nave to pull the axles and replace the backing plates.

It's very frustrating they either didn't notice, didn't care, and didn't tell me about the worn lands when they were doing this work. It's another reminder to me of why I never pay anyone to do anything with my vehicles.

So anyway, take a look at the lands on your backplates and see if they are smooth, or worn. May be contributing to the brakes getting stuck.

Just revisiting your story here, Jon. Did you find a solution to this and how did you measure your lands?

[JohnnyPopper]

I think VZ called it when he said he was willing to "bet" that it was a maladjusted installation.

I don't know him personally, but to put out that boundary, I have to take a serious look.

When brakes need replacing, in a functional auto adjusting scenario, the little wheel at the bottom is hyper extended, right?

Meaning, it has kept the gap between the shoes and the drum close, real close.

Now, inexperience mechanic, after installing correct parts, tries to reinstall the drum, it won't fit, he hammers and flails, cursing and using his biggest hammer, chipping and scoring the shoes, FINALLY realizes that he needs to reduce the length of the hyper extended thingamabob.

Still too tight, so after a short time of driving, it HEATS UP... screeching et al ensues....

Go with the flow my friend, you will be just fine.

[Spool]

Thanks, Johnny.

Forgive me, I've edited my last post if you wouldn't mind re-reading it? - Not sure if my edit would change your comment here?

I fully respect, admire and appreciate your opinion as well as Vile and BD. I've learned much in the last 5 years here and consider you all my digital mentors. You all have helped me tremendously. (There was another man named Henry, but I haven't seen him in two years - hope he's well.)

I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my head around a mechanic failing to adjust the adjuster correctly multiple times.
Not only that, it's not that I drive too far in one 'session' and then it begins to heat up due to friction... It's that I'll get the truck back, and it's perfectly fine for a day or two. Then it gets a little squeaky-intermittently after 3 or 4 days. Then it's getting so hot I can smell it and I'm turning heads at every red light as I shake and squeak to a complete stop...

So, if you're saying, after a short time of driving, it heats up - what is expanding? The adjuster is only supposed to expand after I wear down the shoes a bit, no? What would explain my description above? Surely, not the adjuster moving so quickly after only just 20 or so miles?

That's why, at this point, I'd rather just scrap it all and start fresh. Even my adjuster is coated with gook- the only thing that looks new is the shoes and a few two springs up top. I've been frugal thus far - I'd be very comfortable buying heavy-duty shoes and new pieces in a kit.

[bd]

There is no question that the shoes were misadjusted.  The quality of workmanship as evidenced by the posted images was unprofessional, at best, and shameful for the amount charged. 

If you've lost confidence in the quality of the shoes and are dead set on replacing them again, install Raybestos 248PG or Wagner PAB248DR shoes.  Just bear in mind that squealing with brake application can result from the hardness of the lining, humidity or moisture, excess dust accumulation, drum finish, and drum hardness.  Pull all of the wheel cylinder rubber boots back and inspect for the presence of brake fluid.  Replace the cylinders if brake fluid is discovered under the boots.  Bear in mind that a slight amount of water may have leaked past the cylinder pins when you rinsed off the backing plates.  If water droplets are found under the boots, wipe the cylinders dry along with any surface rust that may have formed.  Have the drums measured and compared to the legal wear limit when you go to pick up parts.  Purchase, at least, a new hardware kit containing new springs and nails, four cans of brake cleaner, a nylon bristle parts cleaning brush, a wire brush, some medium grit emery cloth or sandpaper, a small tube of white lithium grease, and necessary fluids. 





Thoroughly scrub and wire brush all of the oil, grease, and gunk off of the backing plate and axle spindle assembly.  Disassemble the star adjusters and wire wheel the threads and pintle.  Rinse the threads and pintle clean and then lube with white lithium grease and reassemble.  Check the shoe lands (six per backing plate) for deeply incised grooves and, if necessary, sand them just enough to remove any abrupt edges that may cause the shoes to catch.  Smear a dab of white lithium grease on each of the lands and remount the shoes, starting with the star adjuster and lower spring before lifting the shoes into place onto the backing plate, followed by the correct length nails, hold-down springs, and self-adjuster lever.  Install the park brake strut with spring, the adjuster link, and the shoe return springs.  Make sure that the park brake is backed off.  Approximate the initial shoe adjustment so that the drum will slip onto the spindle and over the shoes with zero to very little resistance.  The shoes may need to be rocked slightly from side-to-side to get the drum started.  Perform the final adjustment after the wheel bearings are properly adjusted.

[Spool]

Thank you for all of that, BD. I truly appreciate you time.

I just googled the RayBestos and Wagners and noticed the Wagners are 'Thermo Quiet,' but that appears to just be a marketing term for Wagners' ceramic material? Neither mention 'Heavy Duty'- is this important or do you think I'm getting hung up on a throwaway term?

You mentioned squealing can be a result of lining material. Is one type of lining material better than another in generally warmer climates like Los Angeles? If not a ceramic lining like Wagner, what other materials can brake manufacturers use?

I've been reading online that it's good practice to replace the cylinders when replacing shoes. With that I'm currently shopping for a brake kit that would provide me with as many new pieces as possible - springs, adjuster, cylinder, locking pins - even the 'e-brake arm' if you will... Any suggestions that you've enjoyed in the past?

Speaking of shopping, here's my have and needs:

Haves:
-Brushes
-Sandpaper

Needs:
-Shoes we mentioned
-The kit we just mentioned
-Brake Cleaner. I'll most likely order CRC online as store shelves have been empty.
-White Lithium Grease
-Differential Fluid (Are there different kinds or one size fits all?)
-Brake Fluid (Different kinds or one size fits all?)
-Flange wrench for brake hose (Do we know which size?)
-Small clear rubber hose so I may satisfy my curiosity of filming the air bubbles escape when I bleed the brakes.
-Caliper to measure drums


My drums:
I need to take a closer look at them and see the brand/other manufacturing markings to find the legal wear limit on them.
The mechanic said he had to machine them... but who knows?
It's not ideal for me to bring the drums anywhere, but I can measure them. I'd need a larger caliper as the one I have isn't large enough.
This video is informative https://youtu.be/7swXdE0YqFY
Should I hold off on buying the shoes before confirming the diameter of my drums?

"Disassemble the star adjusters and wire wheel the threads and pintle." - Is the adjuster in the bottom center? If not, do you happen to have an image or diagram pointing to this?

"The shoes may need to be rocked slightly from side-to-side to get the drum started." - Getting the drum started as in getting the shoes to fit within the drum, correct?

"Perform the final adjustment after the wheel bearings are properly adjusted." - This makes sense only because I was reading your old post while you replied here! Just to clarify though, properly adjusted is after I torque my inner and outer lock nuts, correct? I'm not sure if my backing plate has a window, but your instructions in this post should get me by just great! : http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=31495.msg265059;topicseen#msg265059

Thank you again for your time, man.

[JohnnyPopper]

Spooler-friend

So sorry I failed to note your issue of heat and smell. That is a horse of a different color... as someone once said.

Of late, we have spoken of the rubber flexible line that rides between the chassis and the front wheels. They can break down internally and retain pressure to the caliper. Like stepping on the brakes while in motion.

Given your description, that may be what is going on here.

Picture this: you step on the brakes, pressure builds in the rear line to two brakes, you slow down, but the flexible rubber line acts like a one-way valve, not allowing the pressure to bleed off.

Heat, smell, screeching.

The only other alternative is the proportioning valve is malfunctioning.

In either case, the dumb shoes, springs, cylinders, adjusters, are reacting as designed, to PRESSURE. 

[Spool]

Spooler-friend

So sorry I failed to note your issue of heat and smell. That is a horse of a different color... as someone once said.

Of late, we have spoken of the rubber flexible line that rides between the chassis and the front wheels. They can break down internally and retain pressure to the caliper. Like stepping on the brakes while in motion.

Given your description, that may be what is going on here.

Picture this: you step on the brakes, pressure builds in the rear line to two brakes, you slow down, but the flexible rubber line acts like a one-way valve, not allowing the pressure to bleed off.

Heat, smell, screeching.

The only other alternative is the proportioning valve is malfunctioning.

In either case, the dumb shoes, springs, cylinders, adjusters, are reacting as designed, to PRESSURE. 

That certainly would be a horse of a different color.
Let's cross our fingers (or press our thumbs as I learned they do in Austria) that it's just a botch job within the drum and that the problem does not go beyond it and into the lines. My patience would wear very thin if this was the case considering I've been 'solving' this issue since I gave the shop my truck a week before Christmas.

Yet, considering the progress made since deciding to address it in the driveway- we've come a long way since just March 25th and even though the repair was unexpectedly long and unfinished as of now- I must say, the little wins along the way are quite enjoyable. I'll never sell this truck- I love it too much.

But, it would be great if I could safely and quietly pick up my wife at the airport in it on April 15th!

With the forum's help, youtube, discipline and a bit of luck- I'll be able to knock this out and get back to that KillSwitch I wanted to do with you and BD.

[JohnnyPopper]

My favorite quote is: "The main thing is not to panic".

The line I speak of is about 18" of rubber, between the chassis and the rear axle assembly. Not expensive and easy to replace.

As many have observed, your brake components look fine.

[Spool]

Even better then.
You said proportioning valve/ had me thinking I’d have to start at the front and work backwards with new lines.

[VileZambonie]

I'm running a little late this morning so I didn't get to thoroughly read your updates. You posted a link to a video, that guy is using the wrong terms so be careful. The few seconds I watched he described the shoes backwards and referred to them as leading/trailing. Two different types of systems. There is a lot of misinformation on the web let alone youtube.

As I said I'm running late, but did you say your drums are 11" and you have 13" shoes?  What is the opening measurement of the drums and the depth measurement?

[bd]

Referring to reply #110, if you purchase CRC Brake Kleen, procure the "red" cans; 3M also makes a good aerosol brake cleaner.  Frankly, I buy whichever brand is on sale.  At this point, don't assume that anything the hammerman told you is true.  I said mic the drums using the proper fixture because they have a precise wear limit beyond which drums need to be replaced.  If I were you, I would not invest in a brake caliper, but arrange to have them measured at the parts store.  Regarding hardware, based on the images posted, all you need is springs and nails.  Since you are tight on funds, you may not even need springs.  I suggested them only because the hooks appear distorted and they may be original to the truck.  Of course, you can close the hooks suitably by pinching with pliers.  If you prefer, you can "test" the springs by dropping them ~6" directly onto concrete.  If they "thud", reuse them.  If they "sing", their spring has sprung so replace them.  Use fresh DOT 3 or DOT 4 brake fluid from a manufacturer-sealed container. 


Addressing Specific Questions:





Study the image ^^^^.  The star adjuster and its associated spring are located at the bottom.

Rocking the shoes from side-to-side may be necessary to "center" the shoes around the spindle so that the drum will slip over them easily during installation.

The adjuster windows for your brakes are through the drums.

[Spool]

I'm running a little late this morning so I didn't get to thoroughly read your updates. You posted a link to a video, that guy is using the wrong terms so be careful. The few seconds I watched he described the shoes backwards and referred to them as leading/trailing. Two different types of systems. There is a lot of misinformation on the web let alone youtube.

As I said I'm running late, but did you say your drums are 11" and you have 13" shoes?  What is the opening measurement of the drums and the depth measurement?

Thanks Vile.
Learning on the internet is a lot like getting your news - you kind of need multiple sources to form a solid picture.

I don't recall saying 13'' shoes- maybe a typo.
I did say my drum measured roughly ~11-1/8 '', in which I was trying to clarify if that means my shoes would be the 11-5/32" I saw online.

[Spool]

Thanks BD.

I'll report back with on the drum size once I find a solution of getting these measured.

I've been extremely frugal on this budget as I attempted to keep my investment in necessary tools under the $775 refund I received from the shop, which I've excelled in thus far. Lift, Jacks, lock nut socket put me back about $240 thus far. Thus with the remaining ~$535, I feel very comfortable at this point spending roughly ~$200 to replace all parts within the drum- Shoes, springs, adjuster, cylinder, clips/nails, and perhaps the e-brake 'arm' as well.

Thanks for clarifying the brake fluid. I'll proceed with the mentality of what's on sale I suppose, but does it make any difference not knowing what I already have? Similar to not using orange coolant if your tank is full of green coolant? -(A concept I never fully understood.)

I am genuinely interested in sorting out my understanding of the term 'heavy-duty' brake shoes and the different materials used in the brake linings. Would you mind elaborating on their differences for me before I make a purchase?

When I research Gear Oil, which I have been naively calling Diff Fluid, I find that trucks will use a 75W140 product. I wouldn't want to mix oils- therefore, is this to assume I should flush and fill new when I'm done? And if so, which oil would be best for my 14bolt differential?

I've also noticed my 'flange' wrench for the brake line is infact a flare wrench. Ha, how adorable. I hope to reread this thread in another 5 years with cute admiration of this novice chapter in my truck journey.

[bd]

DOT 3 was the original specification.  However, DOT 3 is totally miscible with DOT 4 so either is suitable.

"Heavy-duty" generally relates to the hardness of the lining and the method used to attach the lining to the steel webs, but use of the term is somewhat murky.  Essentially, you can think of heavy-duty as riveted (commercial and fleet applications) vs bonded (individual consumer applications).  Additionally, heavy-duty lining is generally harder, therefore, slightly less sensitive to pedal pressure and more prone to squeal.  Riveted lining better tolerates heat than bonded lining for greater service life in applications that transport heavy loads where brakes may run hotter.