Front Crossmember Question

[MY1978]

Hello -

I have a 1978 C10.  I have had no problems with suspension, frame or steering.  I went to get it inspected the other day at a local shop I have patronized before for both service work and inspections.  The owner of the shop came to me and said he had some bad news. What "alerted" him is that he "heard a pop" when they were pulling it into the shop.  Now shops, on a normal day, are far from being quiet and I would think that "pop" would have to have been fairly loud.  He said my frame was cracked at the steering box.  My heart sank and I was devastated.   He took me out to the bay and using a creeper I rolled up under the front  of the truck.  His shop person was in the cab and started rocking the steering wheel (with engine off) back and forth.  Using a light he was trying to show me that the frame was cracked.  I could not see any cracks but what I did see was the cross member moving back and forth across the frame probably a good 1/2 to 3/4 inch.  The steering box was not moving, just the cross member.  I just could not appreciate the fact that the frame was cracked.  I don't have over sized tires, I have not gone off road, stump jumped, crawled hit any major potholes or done anything that would cause stress to that area.  The mechanic even said, he was surprised because he would not expect it on this truck due to having normal size tires. 

Now I had to find a frame shop, because he could not do the job and come up with some big money.  But something in my gut said the frame wasn't cracked because of the movement of the left to right movement of the cross member and NOT any flexing of the frame or movement of the steering box.  I have a very mechanically knowledgeable friend that I ask to come and look at this issue.  He stated that he was very certain that the frame was not cracked but agreed the cross member had movement - left to right.  The original rivet was removed, holed drilled to 7/16 and a grade 8 bolt with locking nut was put back in place.  The amount of movement is substantially less, down to less that 1/4 inch.

But, he doesn't know if there is always some natural movement left to right since the 2 pieces (frame and cross member) are not welded.  Can anyone tell me if a small amount of movement when the steering wheel is rock (with engine off) is normal?  Maybe roll up under your truck and have someone rock the steering wheel, with the engine off, and tell me if YOU have movement.  We have since decided that all the rivets are going to be removed and grade 8s put back in their places.

Thanks

[bd]

1) Subconcentric and starburst cracks around and radiating from the steering box mounting holes occur more often than one would like to believe, even with factory wheels and tires.  However, any cracks should be discoverable using a bright light and careful observation, assuming keen eyesight, with an assistant wiggling the steering wheel back and forth as you have done.

2) Popping from the forward crossmember attachment to the frame rails can occur when the retaining rivets loosen.  There should be zero movement between the frame rails and forward crossmember.  Inspect all of the rivet holes for wallowing and cracks as above.  Carefully check for hidden cracks that may track along structural bends in the crossmember, end brackets, and frame rails.  Ensure that the replacement Grade 8 flanged frame bolts properly fit their holes and are torqued to their safe limit using anti-seize or torquing compound and flanged frame nuts during assembly.

3) Shock absorber mounting holes through the frame rails are also subject to cracking with the rear shocks being the biggest offenders.  It is a good idea to inspect all locations at the same time.

[MY1978]

Thank you

[VileZambonie]

It's a common issue with the 73-80 frames. You can also weld the two intersections together. Definitely check for cracks and the repair kit w/ brace is a problem solver. I relocate the combination valve to the front if installing the brace.

[MY1978]

So, just thought I would update this topic what what I have found out.

We replaced the one rivet at the steering gear box at the cross member and frame junction.  That cut the movement down CONSIDERABLY - down to less than 1/4 inch. 
We have never heard any pops or creaks - so I am still curious how you would hear a "pop" in a busy, noisy, shop unless it was a loud as a firecracker or M80.
There is not a crack through the frame that can be seen from the opposite side of the gear box area.
All bolts for the bumper brackets were checks and tightened if needed.
All bolts for the gear box were tightened as needed.
The steering box when the steering wheel is rocked is not moving and the steering is not sloppy. 
I was told by a frame shop that if you rock the steering wheel and the front bumper moves, there is a crack.  They suggested the gear box be removed from the frame and check behind it.  Apparently, they do no have experience with these trucks as it is not that easy as there are metal lines that are clamped to the area and would have to be unattached as well as some other items that would need to be disassembled to "just push the gear box out of the way"
I called a not so local (1 1/2 hours away) shop that works on, modifies and sells square bodies.  I was explaining to him the issue.  He again verified that this is a common problem with these trucks, which I already knew.  When I told him about what the frame shop said about the bumper movement with rocking he said there is going to be some movement due to rubber bushings.
I was told by the frame shop that the procedure for a cracked frame was to cut out 24 inches of frame and weld in a new piece.  Cost - $2,500 - $4,000.  In this case because the frame is not cracked through and may just have face cracks, steering gear box  would be pulled back, fix any cracks by welding and then set a mending plate over it.  Didn't get a price for that.  Maybe that was the $2,500.
Square Body shop said I could get a new frame for $500.  Yeah, that is JUST the frame and not the thousands to reassemble. 

So, here we are.  The friend that is VERY knowledgeable about cars and helped out stated that he could feel the hole where the rivet was removed was not round, but more oblong.  So, we have replaced the rivet with a 7/16 grade 8 bolt, locking washers and used locktite.  I am not sure what prompted the whole, look at the frame deal at the shop other than a pop that could occur if something gets just under the edge of a tire and then pops out.  Going to take to another shop to get inspected and see what happens.  The shop I originally went to is a local shop.  I live in a rural area and there are 2 shops that inspect.  This particular shop I really don't think he likes me because I have a brain, ask questions because I care about my truck AND I am the daughter of a mechanic.  So, maybe time to move on.

Wish me luck.

[Shifty]

That shop is either:  Trying to chase you off, or rip you off. 

[MY1978]

If you are referring to the shop that "found" the issue?  Yes, I believe he is trying to chase me off (and has succeeded) and he adamantly stated he didn't do that work (thank goodness) and also didn't know anyone that did (even though I found a frame shop about 25 minutes away).  If you are referring to the frame shop - I think they want my money and yes rip me off.  BUT!!!  it will be fixed better than factory........

[Shifty]

Cool, I just hate to see people get taken for a ride...it's my industry, and hurts us all in the long run.

[VileZambonie]

Let's be clear on a few things.. A shop charging accordingly is not "ripping you off". Paying for services is expensive and the mechanics of this era are either dead, retired or entering the last 20 years of their working lives. The others working on classics are charging appropriately and rightfully so. A shop declining repairs did you good as this is not their line of work and they know better than to go down a rabbit hole having you upset at outcomes. I believe you can fix these issues relatively inexpensively by yourself or finding other enthusiasts in your area. There is no need to spend thousands to fix the steering box frame issue if you even still have one. You have help and advice here to help you so don't make any rash decisions.

[MY1978]

Okay,

First I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and suggestions.  As I stated, removing the one rivet, making sure the bumper bracket bolts were tight (some needed some tweeking) and making sure the steering box bolts were tight and the issues is considerably  less than it was - like down to millimeters.

I sometimes feel that when I would roll up to an inspection station, due to the age of my truck, they WANT to find something wrong.  How could anything this old not have something wrong with it.  Makes them money if I decide to have them fix it.  Point in case, last year I had the truck inspected and they told me I needed new wiper blades.  Okay, but I used them before I left home to wash away dust and they seemed fine.  So I told them to replace them.  Then, I was told my passenger lower ball joint was bad.  I told them how could that be as they were replaced with the past couple of years.  Shrug of the shoulders and they slapped that rejection sticker happily on the windshield and I left.  Lucky for me, I keep receipts and yes, they had been replaced just about 2 years ago and they were Moog ball joints.  I called the shop that installed them and they said bring it in and they would check it out.  Turns out, it wasn't bad, it just needed some more grease in the fitting and voila - fixed.  I had it inspected there and it passed.  Fast forward to this year, and about 200 miles later, and was told I had a frame crack yet tightening up some bolts and replacing a rivet solved the problem.  I know that this can be an issue with these trucks and I will continue to monitor it.

So, I have come up with a solution - I am getting "Antique" tags.  In Virginia I can get Antique tags with personalization.   I like my tag (NOT4SL) and a lot of people like it.  The only restrictions are that it cannot be my sole mode of transportation/daily driver and I cannot go over 250 miles away from my home.  Neither is a problem.  The best part......No inspections.  Now does that mean I will not take it for courtesy inspections - nope.  I just will not have to be haunted by a possible "rejection" sticker for whatever reason.  I still want it to be a safe drive. 

I feel comfortable with this decision.  I have owned this truck since she rolled off the assembly line, she was special ordered and built for ME, she has never left me stranded and I do not feel she ever will. There are times when I think she drove ME home safely due to too much indulgence - young, dumb and stupid - I know I am not the only one here that has done that.  I have taken excellent care of her, and she has taken care of me.  One day we will part ways.  It will be a sad day when that happens, but all good things must come to an end.

And YES, it is a SHE, why else would the name be Ol' Holly.   My mom's car was Betsy.   

Thanks again for all the help.